A review of The Devil in the Family: The Ruby Franke Story

In this episode, Tyler and Brannon talk about The Devil in the Family: The Ruby Franke Story, exploring the shocking details of the case, the psychological dynamics at play, and the impact on those involved. They discuss the broader themes of family dysfunction, accountability, and the importance of recognizing red flags in harmful relationships.

Transcript (Tap to Toggle)
a review of The Devil in the family the Ruby Frankie story what’s up Tyler Brandon how you
doing man um I’m doing really good actually glad to hear it it’s been yeah
it’s been an interesting weekend I imagine I imagine you’ve had a pretty big weekend yeah it’s been really
interesting I’ve I’ve connected with a lot of old people and friends and things and um yeah you know with the with the
documentary coming out um um there’s just been a lot of a lot of people asking questions and wondering about
things so yeah it’s been good but uh before we get into that I do want to share a review if I
can um and this review is all about how awesome you are Tyler so it’s good one
it says thank you Tyler for your episode on Integrity um well the title of it is spoton thank you Tyler for your episode
on Integrity it really resonated with me because I am a small business owner and I have tried hard to build my business
on Integrity honesty and seeing the value in and and worth in every person
this was a great reminder on how to live a meaningful life awesome well thank you we we love
your reviews appreciate you taking the time out of your day to share those things it’s amazing how a simple kind
word goes a long way sometimes yeah um well Tyler you lay
down good content and speak good truth so love it I don’t I got I got to bow
out more often no you don’t man need more often
so like I said I keep I keep a kind of a running tab with everybody who I know listens to the show and I I constantly
am checking in on who’s the better brother and according to my statistics it’s it’s unofficial but according to my
statistics I’m usually behind by about a 40 to 60 rate oh that is not even true at all not
close um yeah um so anyway well let’s
let’s jump into it today Brandon you uh for people who don’t know I’m sure a lot of people do because you’ve been getting it sounds like you’ve been getting quite
a bit of reach out from people from your past and people that you know on connections but you were actually a part
of a three-part sort of docu series that just barely came out this week called
Who is Ruby Franke?
the devil and the family the Ruby Frankie story and um you had the idea that maybe you wanted to just speak to a
few principles that were kind of brought up that would maybe be pertinent to our listeners yeah I think there’s some
things um in that story that are really fascinating um to dissect and also
they’re they’re it’s a good thing to look at as a warning sign and and to learn from and before we dive into it
too far Tyler I I want to say that this this is a really tragic
story um it’s really sad and although I was was a part of filming it and and
being a part of it after I watched it I just had a a sick feeling in my stomach
I told my wife I’m like I feel like I need to go take a shower like it just is
a little bit disgusting and not a little bit it’s a lot bit disgusting um with the way it went down
and what happened to that family and um I do I do got to say it’s good to see
the two older kids that they interviewed how um I think they’re resilient I think
they’re strong I think they’re going to be okay um but yeah it you know we’re
not I I’m not trying to get anything out of talking about Ruby Frankie um what I
want to say is that what what I why I do want to talk about it is because I think
we can learn some things from it um and the extremes of the situation and what
happened you know Tyler happen in not such
extreme examples all the time in the work that we do um and so I think that’s
why that’s why you want to bring this up Brandon is is like like you said it’s not like I mean for the love of
Pete their their whole family has been run through the mud enough it’s not really about their family per se as some
of the other things that you wanted to talk about that actually would maybe apply to people who listen listen to us
many people who listen to us are living in a similar almost parallel kind of a
world and they’re going to run into some of the same things that we talk about today and this is more about this is
less about ruby and more about the process that led to the
story yes that’s a great Point Tyler um that where where it went with this
family obviously got off the rails and it got crazy and all kinds of stuff
um but the yeah the the underpinnings of it um is really important I think to
look at and so I do have a a few bullet points that I’d like to touch on and um
and all of these things I think relate to um some tendencies that a lot of
people have not everybody but a lot of people have um so I I want to start with
Kevin so Kevin’s the dad um and he’s
he’s featured on the documentary he’s probably the main person and the the
producer told me that this this documentary is about giving him a chance to share his story and what happened and
Allegations & Legal Action
explain how it all went down um but quickly as you watch it you you you can
tell that he is a man who lacks an
understanding of self and a man who lacks masc healthy masculinity um and a man who is
extremely codependent to his wife and um extremely
weak and I you know you you watch it progress and
it gets to the point where he’s like a puppy dog with the his tail between his
legs going off to this hole that he’s living in um because he’s just trying to
do the right thing because he wants to save his marriage and his wife and this crazy therapist jod are telling him that
that this is what he needs to do to save his marriage like where is his Truth where is like where is any bit of
like this is what works for me and this is what doesn’t and his entire truth was
um I I want to do what ruby what will make Ruby happy and it shows Tyler at
the beginning where he he goes into her closet so she’s like dating a bunch of
guys right and he’s hanging out with her he goes into her closet and and she has a list of what I want in my eternal
companion and it’s this big long list and he somehow copies it or or takes a
mental note and gets this list and decides I’m going to become that so she
wants to marry me and right from the get-go you can see
he is Notting going to be him he’s going to be a figment of what she wants and
and we deal with this all the time um where the definition of self
runs through a filter of the wife um needing them to be a certain thing right
yeah Brandon and I think something that in our line of work we run into a lot and this is this is hard because there’s
like dialectics in it a little bit is typically what we get in our office is there’s been some kind of a breach of
trust a betrayal some kind of infidelity or or something like that and and naturally in order to want to repair the
relationship there has to be some level of uh reparation which includes
accountability and remorse and um desire to want to change certain behaviors and a lot of times and this is
where the dialectic comes in is it’s like there’s a balancing act between putting yourself in a one down position
and staying there for eternity in order to pay penants versus actually working through
a process which says oops I’ve been messing up I got to figure my crap out
and yet I still want to be in a relationship where we are equal Partners instead of a oneup one down
relationship and if if you’re you know if you’ve gone and done something that hurts somebody so deeply part of the
remorse part of it can easily sort of fuel and expand whatever levels of
codependency there might be in the relationship yeah I think
that you know I I do not believe that you have to put yourself in
that one down position to make right what you’ve done no but it’s but but it
happens in treatment all the time Brandon like a guy comes in especially if he’s not humble and the therapist is
like dude do you realize what you’ve done like you gota you gota you know humble yourself and soften your heart
and you know a lot of times a guy who’s not very shame resilient he hears beat
yourself up play small do whatever you’re told because that’s how you’re going to fix
everything right and that at first um that never never actually leads
to trust no not long term yeah it doesn’t it doesn’t and so like Tyler I
hear you I think there’s two different things that you’re talking about um one
is accountability and honesty and you know owning it like yeah like I messed
up humility but but and that humility is not weakness humility is not let me give
you my masculinity wife so that so that I I can show you that I’m sorry that now
Family Impact
what happens to a a broken feminine is like okay I’ll take it I’ll take it
because I feel powerful and I feel in control and this is this is where jod and she would do this um to couples and
you’re saying jod is the therapist who was working with this couple right so people who haven’t watched the documentary that’s jod was the therapist
working with this couple where everything went off the rails yeah and I’ve talked about jod before but but this is right where jod would step in to
there’s there’s this part of it when everything’s kind of broken in terms of the polarity and the relationship and
the lack of strength from the masculine where there’s something about let me
Empower you right now to take full control of the situation because you’re
not safe with him because he’s so weak and that’s right where jod knew how to hit that button so well with people she
just hit it and and um and what would happen is the very opposite of getting
better is is now the man needs to become even weaker to hang in the relationship
to stay in there with the the relationship and do whatever or else
these big in quotation marks boundaries would come that would ultimately start
to split the family apart and so you see Kevin like he he actually was so
compliant like so so compliant he he wasn’t like a from what I could tell he
wasn’t like about confrontation um and so he I I actually
do believe him that he legitimately thought the best thing to to like fight for his family was to not have contact
with his family for over a year now to the world you watch that and you’re like
you have got to be kidding me like you really didn’t know your kids were down in St George getting like horrifically
abused you had you had no idea um and and I do think is is
he like I I do think he’s there’s some accountability there on his part but his
his problem was he was so weak that he didn’t step up sooner right so anyways um when we talk
to men Tyler and we hear that codependency of like well I just want her to like me I just want her to have
sex with me I just want her to I just want I just want to be a good boy I just want to do the right things I just want to make sure you know the reason why
that like we go after that is is why well for everything you just
described is that it actually doesn’t help re rebuild trust in the long run and in fact it it actually damages the
relationship because it’s still being built off of a facade instead of the reality of two authentic people deciding
to be together right right and and and you know to Kevin the thing thing about
Kevin is like he did have a therapist with a strong Voice come in and say this is how
you do it this is what you do and I think the the lesson here to learn is I don’t care what letters you
have behind your name I don’t care what kind of Pastor you are what kind of person you are my filter of Truth goes
between me and God first and foremost yeah and and and it’s not that I won’t trust people like you and I
Tyler we’ve hired a coach and like we’re all about like listening and but if that coach told me like hey you need to go do
this crazy thing I’d stop for a minute and go I don’t know I don’t I’m not
going to do that that doesn’t work for me right yeah there’s a Brandon on this principle really quickly before you move
on to your next bullet point there’s you know there’s I I have some empathy for
for everyone in the situation um you’ve seen like the studies all the all the
famous studies like the mgrm studies or the line study of you know having people come in and do
the shock machine and it shows where they’re dialing up the shock and at 70% of people if there was a person with a
white lab cod in that looked like a doctor saying You must continue the study they would go until they delivered
what they thought was a shock that was fatal to the person on the other side of the room and you know the line studies
having people in front of you that are all doing the exact same thing 66% of
people will will betray their own truth truth in order to conform to what the rest of the group says um because
there’s such a pressure that pressure socially to conform especially when
Signs of Abuse
there’s some kind of an authority in place yeah and uh and what you’re saying Brandon I I one of the things that I was
thinking about in our line of work and this is something that I try to be very careful with I hope that my clients all
know this is is that whatever my opinions are they are only opinions that have to
be run through your filter of Truth and that have to be you know in my case it’s like a wrestle with God okay God
I’m getting all this data from everyone including my therapist what’s true for me right and one of the one of the best
things that I get sometimes is when I give some advice and somebody walks away and they come back and they’re like hey
I really thought about this and uh I think this part maybe you were right on but this part I don’t agree with at all
it’s like Hallelujah like right but just thinking about that there’s Brandon you
have this you’ve got you’ve got super fans right now that that’s that’s going
a little far but well you do you do you are now you are now even a bigger celebrity than you already were oh yeah
I’m huge so but but you could there are
people in your life right now that you have influence with that if you told them to go do something totally nuts and
you said this will help you this will make you better they would go do it right and and that’s true Tyler um and
I just like you I I tell them look I just I I speak words a lot of it’s
coming through my filter you need to really learn how to ground yourself
trust yourself and know yourself so that you can make the decisions moving forward and um I am I am not God I am
not the one that can tell you exactly what you want you’re going to create in your life um and and but but someone
like Jodie is the opposite of that I she actually established herself as the
authority and then basically shamed you if you didn’t follow through on what was said yeah she wanted power she wanted
she wanted that and so she would take it if you would give it to her and that’s the key is if you would give it to her
when I was working there I saw people come in and they’d start in with the therapeutic process with her and they’d
be like holy [ __ ] like get me out of here like what like this is nuts like
I’m not no I’m not adhering to this and then I saw others and usually it was Mr
Nice Guys and um and actually women who
who were really lost who just drank it it in like okay okay you’re giving me
all the answers I’ll do exactly what you say and even though I would hope deep
down in their gut they kind of like this is nuts like well this is crazy they still went along with it and they didn’t
listen to that intuition inside of them saying this isn’t this isn’t good and
and she was really deceptive she was really good at it um another interesting thing is you look at her personal life
and and you look what’s going on with her and who she is as a human being and it’s not so good so her words are one
thing and she’s like beating this drum and this and that but then like who’s the messenger I think that actually matters
who is the messenger what kind of energy is coming from that messenger um and if you can’t tune into
that you’re you’re disconnected and you’re just in your shame and then she’s going to take that
message and get her power um well that’s what the shame does is it disconnects
and then when you’re in that spot you’re looking for any answer you can find yeah I I uh I want to tell a story about my
my wife we went to this training years ago years ago and it was this kind of
like impact training thing do do you know what impact training is oh yeah I’m familiar with impact train and it was a
little off base it was a little like like the guy running it like you could just feel how unhealthy he was and like
they were trying to break us down in all these different ways like just get in our face and break us down and and uh
and and we had to get in someone’s eyes and look him in the eye and give them feedback like you’re supposed to give them real feedback and so but in like a
but in like a bad energy kind of a way oh in a in a like you just tear them to Pieces way and Jenny gets in front of
this this like sweet woman who had been through so much trauma in her life and
Jenny gets some tears in her eyes and she’s like you’re a powerful human being and um and God loves you so much and and
right then this facilitator gets in Jenny’s face and is like don’t tell her that you know like you’re supposed to
give her feedback you’re not helping her blah blah blah blah drill sergeant yeah and Jenny turns to him and gets in his
face and is like you don’t tell me that I can’t say that to her like how dare
you I’m telling her who she really is and I was like so proud of my wife
because that dude had worked so hard to get group think going of everybody tearing everyone down and she was like
hell no we’re not doing that here um and I share that example because it’s really
Public Reaction
hard when an authority is there it’s really hard with when somebody with a loud voice is saying this is the way
that it is but Tyler that’s how Wars start that’s how Cults like start and do
horrific things is nobody stands up and says what this isn’t okay right so okay
um I want to move on to a couple other things Okay so
um one thing about it and you can kind of pick up on it in the
story is this whole thing about
righteousness and um it there’s this otherness to it of like we are doing the
right thing despite how the world responds to it um it’s like when she
made her son sleep on a bean bag for seven months and he didn’t have a bed um instead of like saying yeah that
probably wasn’t great she gets indignant and she’s like well yeah of course you
don’t understand I’m fighting for truth we’re fighting for truth and the more we
fight for truth the more resistance we’re going to get and so it’s like this
righteous it’s it it’s this prideful thing masked in righteousness
that happen and what it does is it justifies the behaviors and this is what
happened when they started really abusing the the younger children it justifies those behaviors because they
have Twisted it to think that they are actually fighting for God’s truths um
and I think you got to be really careful with that um and and really check out
why you’re doing what you’re doing but you can feel the pride in them um when
they’re talking about the things that they’re doing yeah so so Brandon this is tricky
because you know I think you look at like we could probably have our listeners look at specific relationships
they have right now where they’re at odds with somebody and both parties
would be able to claim the moral High Ground of being righteous right and yet they’re at odds
with each other right so so how so so what is what is righteousness yeah so
that’s I guess that’s the question how do you how do you guard against uh against that so even like
right now I’m thinking of myself Brandon like I spent pretty much my the vast majority of my
career at odds with a pornography industry that I consider as truly evil
um I take pride I take pride in being engaged in a battle where I’m on the
minority and I’m going to get my butt kicked but it’s still worth fighting because of how passionate I feel about
about about that so am I am I how do I guard myself from
being overly morally righteous to the point of actually being wrong well I think that’s actually a great example
and a great question and I think I mean I think the answer to that
is really to be like be genuinely humble and genuinely like searching for
um truth and and what what that is without any any agenda for power or
purpose or whatever it is like okay like if I really am checking in with myself
and if I really am like asking these questions in a humble way I believe
you’ll get the answers of what the righteousness is or the truth is um so
on you go ahead if you’re just on a crusade because you’re on a crusade and it get you know you get all these things
from it whatever it is you better check yourself a little bit like what what is my motives here right
so you run the risk of it being a false sense of righteousness if there is some kind
of you you at least need to check in on it if there’s some kind of ulterior motive for either power
or temporal gain or something else
versus basic true principles is that what you’re saying yeah it’s kind of like if you if you think about Ruby
um Ruby you know everything was masked in we’re doing this to show the world so
her her eight passengers thing we’re doing this to show the world what a good family is we’re doing this to um show
show the world what a good mother is and um and also like do some missionary work
Accountability & Healing
and help the world and in the meantime the only thing we have to do is exploit our children and force them in
front of a camera all the time so that um we can make a lot of money but oh by
the way we’re doing all this good and I’m not saying that you can’t make a lot of money and do good at the same time I
totally know that you can um but was she really honest with herself was she
really honest about her motives and some of the clips that they show it’s like no
you can see her motives you can see that the priority it was more important of
how they looked in front of the camera than what was actually going on with her
children right like so it was maybe what felt like loss of touch with what was
truly the stated goal which was have an amazing family but but that in some ways
almost became the peripheral goal because of the pressure that was there to perform to produce to whatever else
well I think almost one I I think it took over it’s and Kevin talks about
this when he’s like yeah we made 8,000 then we made 20 then we made a 100 Grand in a month and he’s like and I wanted
more and it’s interesting to hear that because it’s like the the kind of that
the money and the the fame of it started to take over he to say things like she was America’s mom and I’m like well
that’s a little far like I don’t know if she was that famous but um you know like
they show this clip of her on Mother’s Day and it’s like she look at her she is the mother of the you know and it makes
you gag a little bit um and yeah like what
really like why were they called to do that channel and and were they actually
called by God to do that channel because they sure touted or Ruby especially sure touted that it was all about God driving
her to do that right um but hindsight you look at it and you’re like really
like I I don’t know about that right yeah yeah so so that’s a sticky one
Brandon I think what I’m hearing you say is it’s at least at a minimum working really hard to cultivate humility and
curiosity and a willingness to be wrong um would help to mitigate getting
stuck in that pattern of what might be a false sense of righteousness yeah yeah
and I I don’t know I mean this is just me kind of my opinion but I felt like
there was some some I I’ll go as far to say scrupulosity there with Ruby of
needing to be good needing to look good needing to to be righteous needing to be
the perfect this a little bit of an obsession yeah and so when jod comes
along and is like this is how you do it this is what right is don’t be in Distortion this is what truth is they
for heaven’s sakes they called themselves moms moms of Truth um
and so when when jod came along with the full Playbook of how you be the perfect righteous mother um Ruby was like oh
good like okay like let’s do this let’s do that let’s the you know and so I
think her anxiety and her fear led her into a trap um and she probably thought
that it was like good in many ways obviously she did
so do you think and I don’t know maybe you’re going here with your next Point Brandon but do you think on the other
other side of things I’m trying to put myself in the shoes of jod the therapist do you think that
she was willful in taking advantage of people like that or do you think she was
honestly believing that she was doing the right things and helping people I I
don’t honestly Tyler like I I rarely meet a human being that I I believe is
evil um um and but I think she was absolutely
willful and she was trying to get power money um Fame and sex out of it um she
was exploiting it to get those things and knowing Jodie like I that’s exactly
how she is it’s all about the money it’s all about the
notoriety um and so yeah I think when she when she she got Ruby in her trap it
Final Thoughts
was like this is the best thing ever like this is awesome I’m going to take this as far as I possibly can and that’s
what she did she took it as far as she possibly could and that’s where it ended up um but I don’t
believe it’s it’s so ironic because Jody’s whole stick is about truth and
this and that and all these things I don’t believe that she actually
felt like she was fighting her truth deep down I think she had other agendas
gotcha um but I don’t know who am I to say right yeah
so um so but but that’s kind of what she
promoted was I’m I’m this Warrior for truth who’s going to tell you you know what is
so um one thing that I wanted to to mention and it’s it’s in the it’s in the
documentary um but I wanted to bring it up especially for our audience
is it’s subtly there but I I definitely picked up on it and I saw it um they
they actually show video of Kevin in his groups which is kind of crazy they they blur out the guys um but they you can
hear her talking and giving feedback and this and that and a lot of times she’s
talking about lust and they also talk about Chad and that Chad’s the old
oldest son and you know how he was looking at porn and lusting and making
out with his girlfriend and stuff and how that you know they just came down hard on that and he needed to be more
pure chased perfect in that way and what
you could see is the how Jodie would use
that sexual shame and that constant like
guilt um to gain power um over people um she you know she
would act as if she was helping them overcome
something um but in reality she was trapping them even more with the shame
around who they are and um using things like
lust um like you see it with Kevin you know first he’s this like hero in the
group and he’s like helping other men and and and um Jody’s just like you’re awesome and then all of a sudden she
starts telling him what a lustful horrible awful person he is and he
starts to believe that and same thing with Chad like he’s a teenage kid he’s bumping along and then all of a sudden
like we get into the you know righteousness around your sexuality and
now Chad needs to meet with her twice a week what do you know um
so I think you just got to be careful around that um it it’s it’s fine to deal with
compulsive behaviors it’s fine to avoid harmful behaviors that harm your life
that’s fine but it doesn’t have to be this steeped in control and shame in
order to control those things in fact you have to have
self you have to have compassion and self-love and self-acceptance in order to be a person who is in
control um to overcome the compulsion so yeah Brandon a different way of saying
that you know we talk about this a lot in our podcast about like are you too Focus are you too focused on only
sobriety and part of what you’re saying here is is that when people go into a setting like this they come in because
they have a behavior that’s causing problems and they want help with the behavior and if you only look at the
behavior without looking at the roots underneath the behavior then one way to behaviorally modify that behavior is to
punish it right so so if you punish it but you don’t understand that the roots
behind it are the shame then what you’re doing is reinforcing the sexual shame that’s
driving the behavior in the first place and I don’t know I don’t know a single person who has they might have been able
to get sober off of it but they haven’t gotten better off of it to overcome their sexual Shame by heaping upon
themselves more sexual shame yeah yeah exactly but Tyler I’ve seen a lot of
therapists U make a lot of money by beating that drum well it’s because
they’re focused on stopping the bad behavior rather than attending to the person’s heart and soul yep but but what
it does is it think about it to that client it’s like oh I am struggling oh I
am bad I better get more therapy I better get more help and then you go to the therapist in the therapy and they’re
like you’re horrible basic well they don’t say that maybe but they do like
you’re lustful you’re you know and it shows it in the documentary um you know you’re Jody said
something to Kevin that was like where dides she get off saying that to him but but uh you know when you go to a
therapist who’s just kind of feeding that narrative then it’s like well yeah I guess I got to keep working and so you
pay for more therapy and you don’t get better you get worse and until you end up in your own townhouse separated from
your family right um so Tyler I I I really want to put the
Jodie thing to rest um and and I got to say like so people who who don’t know
Brandon like you basically the first job you had out of graduate school you were trained by her like she was your
employer right yeah and and and honestly I was only there six months and I picked
up quickly that something was broken but it was an opportunity for me to kind of see what a private practice was and see
what people were coming in for therapy um I was only there six months but that’s not the end of the story that I
have with jod and this is why I continue to talk about it um for years in my own
practice I I would get clients who had been to jod and they would come over
indoctrinated and um just really hard to
get to in terms of um just being open to
things and um so for a lot of years I
knew jod was damaging people and I felt pretty helpless and and
when she got her licensed um put on probation I was um I was hoping that
they would have come down on her harder because I wanted them to shut her down um and she just got put on
probation and she’s a Workhorse and she just kept going and going and going and
even my neighbors like people around my community were like oh yeah I go to this Jodie lady she’s amazing and they were
referring other neighbors to her and I’m like guys like what like stop like what are you doing
and she would she would chew them up and spit them out um and this happened for
years and years and years and so um I the day that she she got arrested
it was this big relief from me like Hallelujah good like take her out of
here because she’s destroying so many people’s lives um I was talking to a realtor the
other day and he’s like yeah my neighbor went to her and just like he’s he’s the best guy but like man that like her
family just got ravished just destroyed um so yeah I I want to put it
to rest um Jody’s in prison now the documentary came out um there’s a lot to
learn from it I think there’s a lot why did you why did you choose to when the
the people approached you Brandon I don’t know how they found you why did you choose to go on the on the
show I felt like it was an opportunity
to give a bigger picture of what happened and to understand what happened
and I actually think the documentary and and especially my role in the documentary um I I was able to do that
and so I I don’t regret it at all um I I
I I know it was made for entertainment purposes um but I think this telling the
story is helpful and I do think especially for the the kids in the family the two oldest I think it’s
helpful for them to be able to tell their story too and so I was happy to be a part of that
um so yeah I it’s been an interesting experience for sure so yeah
um thanks for letting me process it talk about it today Tyler yeah yeah well I
know it’s a big topic right now and in our world it’s a big topic with not even
extends our little world that we operate in most of the time and you know in some ways doing this episode might be as much
for our listeners to have a few principles to think about in their own pursuit of help um as it is for you just to have
another place to decompress it yourself because I’m sure there’s been a lot of emotion flowing through you this week
too so thanks Tyler um and you guys if you
if you’re looking for good help therapists that won’t do what Jody did um therapists that don’t have the
agendas um go to Tyler he’s the man go love
strong hey Brandon I was you know what’s funny about all of this is um the way
that we were trained uh I and again here I am being on my own
moral High ground but I feel like but for the grace of God there go I you know
we a lot of the ways that we were traditionally trained align themselves with a lot of the things that jod was
doing yeah yeah absolutely and so yeah so in a certain took me a while to get
out of it yeah it’s been there’s been a there’s been a continuing and there probably will be a continuing
transformation in both you and me as we go through trying to become better at what we do and trying to trying to grow
into our own full authentic selves as like anybody else and things will change
and I look back at certain Forks in the road in my own development as a therapist and
think man like you could have gone a couple a couple different
steps you know if if we’re honest like we’re all human and um so anyway that’s
a good point so and and I I’d like hope that we’re in a good place right now I I
hope so I feel like I feel like what we’re seeing in people’s lives is good stuff so I feel like we’re on the right
track well you guys thank you for listening and until next time keep on keeping on