Can We Make the Message More Inclusive Without Losing the Mission?

can we make the message more inclusive without losing the mission hey Tyler how’s it going i beat you toit you beat me man you got me you got me that time um Yeah I usually try to beatyou to that uh I know it’s funny i Things are going great man i did have like a a moment this week that I kind oflike regret that I kind of just need to take ownership for oh how pleased so yesreal life confessionals here i love it i I have a I have a I have one guy whouh comes to my comes to one of my groups who we’ve worked on with like lashing out at people and tempers and things andand uh the most one of the one of the famous things that happened was that he lashed out at some clerk at like JerseyMike we call it going Jersey Mike right well I went Hey if you if he me messed up Mike’s way it makes sensei I I do this thing with my daughters every year where I have this ultimate date with dad where I let them pickwhatever they want to do we go we go do whatever it is they want to do and my my one daughter picked the Alex Warrenconcert this week that happened in Salt Lake on Wednesday um and and so I gothalf the time I don’t know these artists you go to but I’ll go check it out that’s what happens when you have teenage girls you know they start

What is Inclusivity?

listening to stuff that you never thought you’d go it’s always good music it was actually great though he had he had some really great music there wasone that I’m probably going to play in all my groups this week called Bloodline that was just really good um any anywayuh so I I buy these tickets and then I buy them on like StubHub and and then Ikeep kind of looking for like my tickets to come through and they don’t come through so then I keep going to StubHub and it’s like “Hey it’s really commonfor tickets not to come through right until the day of the concert or right up till the moment of the concert don’t contact us everything’s okay.” Okay so Ikind of like try to do the patient thing and then the day of I the morning I kind of contact them like “Hey I haven’t seenthe tickets yet i know that they still might come but when am I going to get them?” And they’re like “You’re they’re guaranteed no problem you’ll get them.”We get in line which is all the way around the block down in Salt Lake and as I’m walking through the line I’m getting on the phone with people saying”Hey.” They’re like “You’re guaranteed they’re guaranteed they’re guaranteed check this check that check this.” I go through the security still don’t have mytickets and now we’re standing outside the front gates and I don’t have my tickets and um and StubHub finally I geton the phone with them and they finally send me to some poor customer service agent who has to do this for a livingand they’re like “Yeah yeah we they’re guaranteed we’ll find them.” And he like looks it up he’s like “Give me a minute.” He comes back and he’s like”Hey uh your tickets didn’t come through.”I’m like “But what do you mean you you guaranteed my tickets would come through and now I’m standing outside of aconcert with a dressed up teenage girl who’s excited to go see this artist and you’re telling me you don’t have ticketsfor me you’re going to find me some tickets?” Like “You guaranteed?” He’s like “Sorry we” He’s like “But the good news is we guaranteed it so we’ll giveyou your money back.” And I’m like “You’re going to give me my money back for this are yougoing to give me back the gas money and the hotel room and the dinner and the broken dreams of a little girl like yougoing to give those back to me and he’s like I’m sorry i know you’re probably frustrated and then that’s where I lost it i went Jersey mics on him i said andmy poor daughter is sitting there watching this whole thing unfold and she can see me like getting all protective and like angry she’s like “Dad dad cutit off cut it off like don’t do it don’t do it.” And then I lost it i think I said like I think I said the f- word

Mission Matters

three times in two sentences which I hope mom doesn’t listen to this episodeand I I tried to be nice and I said look this is bad for both of us i feel bad for you that you have a job to have todeal with people like me but would you please just pass the message up the chain to the CEO and your manager andthen I then I let the rant go um um so I apologize to the clerk whoever I talk tothat on the phone that’s not typically my nature to StubHub i still would tell you to f off it’s interesting Tyler welljust quick shout out to Jersey Mike he’s a great guy um I I like how he has anickname now Jersey Mike um shout out to him he’s awesome um but people don’tknow this about you but Tyler has this temper he’s got this like switchthat if if you if you make a a foul call in basketball that he feels like wasn’ta foul he freaks outum there’s certain injustices that he cannot handle it’s always my my rants are always aboutinjustice yeah yeah that’s exactly I have a long really long fuse but when I think there’s injustice then that’s whenI go on these rants where where me I’m perfectly even kill no temper never lonever never lose my cool our listeners know that right like yeah exactly so anyway sorry hey it’s off your chestit’s off my chest i’m sorry to that guy whoever that was on the phone i’ll never probably talk to you good job um and Iwill never use StubHub again so it’s all out there okay um okay anyways well wegot uh an awesome guest with us today um Nate’s here with us nate welcome to theshow thanks happy to be here um really appreciate you being here and um if youcould just give us a little bit of background what’s going on with you and then ask any question sure um I havehonestly been looking forward to this conversation with both of you with sort of a cocktail of gratitude and nerves mygratitude is born out of um the fact that this is my oneyear anniversary this

Common Ground

week is since I became a client of Tyler’s and joined one of his men’s groups um that group and your onlineprogram the healing journey have impacted me in ways that I I probably still amuncovering i mean it has been very impactful for me i’ve experienced real healing i’ve reclaimed parts of myselfthat I didn’t even know that I had lost i found language for things that I usedto carry silently in a shameful sort of way so I feel a lot of gratitude but mynervousness comes out of something I I guess because what I want to ask abouttoday comes from such a personal place this work that you’ve invited us intoand invited me into has become a part of me not not necessarily because I’ve mastered it but because or or even thatI want to become sort of some sort of model student but I have bought in tothe program with my entire heart and these principles have reshaped the way that I live the way that I love uhthey’ve changed my marriage for the better so while the content in the podcast is yours I don’t own any of it ifeel like I’m a stakeholder at the table because I’ve put in sweat equity on this thingso that is the foundation of this and that is I care very deeply about thismessage and how it’s delivered and Brandon specifically you’ve said manytimes on the podcast if you don’t agree with what we’re saying come on the show let’s talk about it so I’m here toanswer that call uh not here to argue or anything like that but uh there’s justsome small things some language that’s used on the podcast that I think mightbe unintentionally closing doors for some people who need this message as much as I do as much as I did and I seethis work as a gift so I want I hope that your message can help as manypeople send that invitation to everyone whether they look like us or share our values that’s that’s my concern that’swhy I wanted to bring it up today so uh before we go any further for

Inclusive Strategies

anyone listening we could probably just title this podcast like how to confront hard topics in the most productive waypossible um Nate just put on a clinic so um yeah thank you uh what I what I heardyou say is actually you you have some things that are hitting nerves inside of you that you know are hitting nervesinside of other people and you care deeply about what we’re trying to do so much so that you want to have theconversation so that we might be able to actually help more people um thanks to you being able to shareyour own thoughts and experiences great empathy that’s right yeah okay allright good yeah so let’s let’s let’s get into it then a little bit uh unless Brandon you were going to Did I cut youoff no I was just going to probably the same thing you’re saying is I was just going to say well first off I loveconversations like this so um I just I I love when people can can have difficultconversations and confront things that are uncomfortable and that’s how healing happens um that’s how things get betterand that’s hopefully how we can get better too so um but I’d just like some more specifics if you could help usunderstand what it is um and just speak to that so we can get into it yeah yeahsure so I wrote down some quotes but I we don’t need to get into that necessarily let let me put it in thisway so um your healing journey program onreclaimyouheart.org is one of the it is incredible in so many ways one of theways that it is so valuable and unique is that it is for both men and women itis for both uh shame and trauma at the same time to me it’salmost it’s counterintuitive like shouldn’t the betrayed go on one journey and the betrayer go on another journeyand yet you put them on the same path to do the same experiences and the language you use in that program isungendered I assume because you’re expecting men and women to be there uh you are more you more frequently talkabout uh higher power than you do God and yet your podcast uses some genderedor prescriptive language uh the most common phrase that comes up for me is

Success Stories

step into your masculinity or sometimes there are comments or assumptions about how women feel or how men behave and Ithink that can sometimes be alienating for listeners who aren’t like you or maybe not like me they’re maybe they’renot Christian maybe they’re not straight maybe they’re not monogamous uh maybe they’re not married um and so anywaythose are the generalizations that I feel like are sometimes limiting and don’t take your message to the fullaudience that could receive it tyler did you have thoughts no I thinkthat’s a really good thought you know when you bring that up actually I’m trying to think about how we the tone wetake in the podcast versus what’s over on the platform and I actually see I can see what you’re saying that there is alittle bit of a difference there um and in my head I guess I’m trying to thinkof this Nate and maybe you have some ideas on this that’s maybe why you’re on the show today um we do talk abouttopics like um masculinity like femininityum we typically and and I would say this is where it’s this is this is where weprobably take things for granted sometimes too is is that the the prototypical clientele that we that wetypically get in our practices is you know um some kind of breach oftrust or fidelity most often and if you look at our practices neither Brandon orI have have women’s groups for the betrayers and we don’t have men’s groupsfor the betrayed and part of that’s just because we don’t get that we don’t see that coming through the door for therapyvery often i think partly maybe because of societal things and other kind of gender things that go on in society soit probably becomes pretty convenient for us just to naturally default into that kind of language on the podcast m

Balancing Act

um so on one hand that’s probably just something that happens sort ofconveniently but on the other hand I I’m wondering like how do you andand if you have thoughts let’s talk through this how do you talk about the topics of things like masculinityfemininity and relationships um and leave it more openyeah one of my favorite quotes and I I’m going to sound like I memorize your podcast i don’ti love it Nate yeah way back in episode 366 you had a man on the show uh whowhose wife had betrayed him and Brandon you said this i think we do a disserviceby just acting as if betrayal goes one way and I loved that quote so here’shere’s one idea and this is my curiosity so I’m look I’m not a therapist i don’tknow this stuff but I listen to you guys regularly i’m really invested in the program sometimes you’ll reference CarlYume and I think his message is in two sentences is that before we can giveourselves in a relationship we first have to have a self we have to know whowe are so I think when you’re talking about stepping into masculinity or embracing femininity what you’re reallysaying is you’ve got to find yourself step into who you really are who God oryour higher power really meant you to be but isn’t maybe what we need isn’t moremasculinity or femininity but maybe it’s more tylerinity and brandinity moreauthentic self and what if calling it masculine and femininity sometimes feels like kind of a copout a a cheap name for

Engaging Audiences

traits that could be way more specific for instance honoring your truthstepping into your strength those are specific traits that I think could be labeled femininity or masculinity but ifthe people hearing the message if they’re in their car earbuds in on the sofa whatever and they hear that andthey say “Well I don’t feel that way.” Or because it’s gendered right but if wejust name the trait I think you accomplish the same thing without compromising your valuesum that’s an interesting one for me um God I have so much I want to say Nate uhwhere do I even begin um I’ll work I’ll work backwards so let me address the first thing that you were just talkingabout um I I kind of disagree with that a little bit and and here’s why i don’tI don’t view masculinity and femininity as gendered um and and it might soundthat way because it just automatically sounds that way when we talk about it um I think the essence and the energy ofthose things is important to put a name to it and important to have a name to itso I I totally agree with you that we’re just talking about owning you owning whoyou are um and it’s important I think for someone to know is my essence moremasculine is it more feminine um and when I’m in relationship let’s say I’min a relationship with my wife let’s say she’s more masculine it’s helpful for me tounderstand that’s why she is the way she is because she she’s more masculine than she is feminine um and so I don’t see aproblem with that if you can ungender it if it’s automatically assumed that I’mjust talking about men being masculine and being men and that’s it and women being feminine um then those people whoaren’t a feminine woman or a masculine man probably feel a bit like on theoutside right or like is there something wrong with me because I’m not more masculine or I’m not more feminine rightso I don’t know Nate if you have any response to that yeahum I masculinity you may not agree with this but if if we thought masculinity orfemininity was sort of like a biological thing then we would see it be defined consistent consistently over time and

Measuring Impact

culture but we don’t there are other cultures define masculinity in different ways and over time it has changedso um yeah I I don’t know i I don’t find it particularly helpful to think of asespecially if I’m thinking of same-sex uh relationships well who carries themasculine and who carries the feminine and uh Brandon you did a nice job on May in your May 12th podcast aboutfemininity saying we all have both of them inside of us but I wonder if specificity wins theday uh in terms of inclusion and also in terms of effectiveness would be myquestion i I’m not saying it does or doesn’t but for me it’s more effectivebeing more specific say more about that Nate help me understand that yeah specificity wins the day yeahspecificity is talking about okay step into your masculinity often times more often than not when you say that you addclarifying sentences after that that say boy if you could step into yourmasculinity then you could confront your spouse about your truth gotcha reallyyou’re talking about the second part you’re and you’re giving it a name at the same time i don’t think if you takethe first sentence away I don’t think you lose any meaning i think you say “Boy if you could step into your truthand confront your spouse your wife whatever you could do X Y and Z it’s the

Importance of Feedback

same message but we’ve taken masculinity out of it which is may or may not begendered it it feels gendered to me especially when phrases like a womanwants to be pursued or uh femininity is like the moon right those types of linesdon’t they don’t resonate for me and I’ve got to think that there are listeners to your message that maybethey don’t resonate for either right um yeah I thinkI it’s interesting i have uh my daughter is into theater and so she has a lot offriends in theater and you know theater drama is a place where a lot of kids whoum who are trying to figure out who they are and figure out their sexuality andthat that’s for some reason they end up a lot of them I’m generalizing but they end up in drama and theater and um so Ihave a lot of kids coming over to my house my daughter’s friends who are the best kids i I love them um but there’sthis you know they’re they’re sorting it out and there’s this there’s this confusion for them about who am I as aas a and I I I’ll say this and you might not like this but as a masculine per being or as a feminine being like wheredoes my masculinity and femininity fit here um and instead of going thedirection for me and this might be where we disagree instead of going the direction of it it’s not a it you knowit doesn’t exist or it’s not a thing or it let’s not talk about it as that Ithink it’s actually actually more helpful to be able to say it is what it is you are who you are and let’s call aspade a spade and own what that is um and and if we call it masculinity ifthat’s too triggering or too gendered or too then I got to take a look at okay isthat just my automatic programming that we call that masculinity right or we

Key Takeaways

call that femininity but I think it’s important i think it’s important to be able to say “Huh this iskind of where I lie like who I am.” Um and I will put a name to that um and andI don’t think that is not being inclusive i think you can be both inclusive and use language ofmasculinity and femininity so I don’t know maybe we just disagree on that Nate yeah so potentially i I haven’t talkedto all of your listeners i don’t know but you’re I I think um what I’m tryingto do is maybe call something that may be unconscious to consciousness and that is we all have bias in including the twoof you and sometimes that shows through on your show and I wonder if a little more consciousness about that uh willjust that awareness alone will help uh make the message broader i love thatbecause um I know we have bias like we have big-time bias and um I I reallyit’s really good to hear from you Nate that that in the healing journey you didn’t feel it as much i rememberdistinct conversations with Tyler of like we’re not going to you know pigeon

Join the Conversation

hole men into the cheaters and the women into the betrayed like we’re not going to just gender that and we need to becautious of that because of what Tyler said earlier we work with men all the time who are the betrayers and women whoare the betrayed um it doesn’t mean that that’s how it’s always going um theother thing is like this podcast spawned from the betrayed the addicted and theexpert you know so it was like the betrayed was this dude you know or the

Q&A Session

betrayed was this woman and and so that’s kind of where this this came fromum but we come by this honestly too of our the way we were raised um ourconservative background our religious background like Tyler and I bring all that to the table and I think we’reunconsciously and I’m going to say this and this is this is uncomfortable to saywe’re unconsciously probably a little bit homophobic and and I’d like to claimthat I’m not like my heart is not that right but unconsciously probablyautomatically in some ways we’re not very sensitive um and unconsciously we’re probably alittle bit sexist right and and I think everybody is depends on who’s defining the sexismbut yes 100% i think everybody is but if if we were to sit here and say that after doing how many 400 and somethingepisodes that those things didn’t start showing through we would be out to lunchto to to think that we’re perfectly not those things so that honesty I I think that’spowerful yeah yeah i actually think what I like about you coming on and sharing this Nate is it’s good to haveespecially the way you’re doing it it’s good to have the confrontation of that where I’m Well I I think I see Brandondoing it too and I’m having it churn in my head like what is the water that I am swimming in that is just so all aroundme that I don’t really that I kind of do take things for granted right becausecuz if you were to measure like what my heart’s doing versus what I might sound like those probably don’t actually line up all the time based off of everythingBrandon just said now on the other hand of that I sometimes find myself kind ofbeing confronted with these things and I I find this uh just to be transparentwith myself I found I find an internal battle that’s always going on too asto how much would I be betraying myself if I not only didn’t acknowledge that Ihave these things in the background but that some of those things have shaped me in ways that I actually like and that Iactually agree with and where’s the overlap between where I need to confront my biases and continue to change andlearn and grow which I need to and I’m constantly working on that and what are the other parts of me that might also bebeing pressed on but that actually need to remain this like where they’re at for me to be congruent and these kinds ofdiscussions like I can tell you right now even after we hang up our call today I’ll probably spend a lot of time goinglike you you you’re already offering me a gift that I know I’m going to have todo some deep thinking and pondering on in myself um so so I want to say thank you to that uh there’s another anotherpart that’s kind of going through me and I don’t know how this fits in so maybe it doesn’t but but I’m thinking aboutjust kind of certain things that you look at if we go back to this idea of masculine and feminine these twodifferent kinds of energies you know um if you look if you look at kind ofwhat traditionally you would call feminine and traditionally you’d call masculine and then you lay that over the top of the generalpopulation typically speaking there’s about one standard deviation so think of bell curves there’s one standarddeviation on the scale where more men are going to fall into the masculine category and more women are going tofall kind of more on the side of the feminine category even though there’s a an overlap that’s only at one standarddeviation right and then you go and you look at cultures where you know you you go to Ithink Sweden or other places where they put a lot of work into trying to just say there’s like those things don’texist what you actually see is it polarizes itself even further where more women find themselves going into thekinds of professions that you’d expect the feminine energy to to pursue things like nursing and teaching and thenurturing kinds of professions and the men tend to polarize even further into like all the STEM kinds of things and itfeels almost like and I don’t know what this is about but one question that’s run through my mind is if we don’taccept that generally speaking right there’s obviously situations that are different i tend to be it’s kind ofweird I tend to be pretty feminine in a lot of the ways that I approach thingswhen it comes to like the emotional side of things if you looked at the two traditional kinds of and yet I have alot of other masculine traits you know by the same standard so I sometimes feelconfused myself like most people would see me as a pretty masculine man but on the inside Ifeel pretty feminine or a conversation I had with my wife just talking about these two concepts of masculine femininenot too long ago she really relates to having a lot of masculinity in her she approaches the world in a pretty linearway she’s straight up she’s firm like you know all of those things and yet shewas realizing that in our relationship together she has another part of her that she would call her feminine sidethat hasn’t really been able to bloom or blossom partly because of how I traditionally had showed up in therelationship and not being a place where that could be receivedum and so if I if I can speak that language masculine and feminine with herthen then it does give us some kind of a a template to then have the discussionsabout oh yeah that I could do this and this and this or oh yeah I want to lean into that or you know what this isn’t melike I’m probably never going to do those things um and I think maybe what you’re saying lines up with that andjust being more specific to it so that it doesn’t feel like it’s likeuh putting putting people into a box yeah i I think in one-on-oneconversations it can be very helpful you’ve had callers come on more often than not and they bring up masculinityso you have to address it i I don’t think avoiding it is necessarily the answer your audience on this podcast ishopefully the world and um something I appreciate about your faith and andChristianity is that Jesus wasn’t really concerned about the first standard deviation right he said “Hey we got the99 but I’m going to go after the guy on the fringe or the woman or the they onthe fringe and I’m going to go rescue them.” And your Tyler you once said thatthe healing journey program is worldclass and deep in my soul i believethat i believe you guys have taken research and experience and you’ve put it together in a way that doesn’tactually talk about sobriety and yet somehow that becomes a fruit of the workit It’s phenomenal i What you have is so incredible and gay people and transpeople and uh straight people and Christian people all could benefit fromthat and their lives would be better if they invested their effort into that soare men and women different i I think yes they are they’re biologically different they’re hormonally differentthey have different lived experiences all I’m hoping to communicate or inviteand be curious about is how do we talk about that especially in a public platform if we speak ingeneralizations do we risk erasing the real diversity that exists across theentire spectrum especially in those kids that come over to Brandon’s house who don’t feel like they fit um and ra ra rara ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra ra rather than ignore those differences what if we’re just precise talk about traits behaviors I think that conversationbecomes more honest not less is my feeling i think you bring up a reallygood point i the the thing going on with me right now is but how do you do thatyou know because on one hand um you can speak the a certain languageto certain people and they’ll they’ll resonate and hear it um as a result because you’re kind of speaking theirlanguage right um to speak to a broader audience I think is awesome i want to dowhat you’re saying Nate um but it’s it’s really tricky um like how how do youpull that off um I think you know Tylerand I if you could have known us when we were 20 um you you would see that thatwe like we have shifted drastically and one thing one part of the healingjourney it’s dur section two uh trauma tree we’re like really gettinginto consciousness of your belief systems And um the it’s it’s reallyfascinating Nate because I think most of us are fairly unconscious of why we dowhat we do and where that’s coming from um and that’s no different for for Tylerand I you know and so yeah I want to speak to a broader audience i want tospeak truth even if truth is difficult or hard to hear um but I want everybodyto know they’re loved i want everybody to know they can heal i don’t care if you’re gay straight black white like Idon’t I don’t care i want everybody to know that um religiousnon-religious but how do you speak the language to everybody so that they canresonate they can hear it you know and partake of the healing you know that’s agreat question let me let me see if I can talk your language i you guys often talk in terms of movie quotes so So letme try to speak uh the p the Patrick household language okay you’ve seen theuh you’ve seen Kung Fu Panda for sure love it tyler’s favorite it’s a recovery movie i love that movie absolutely andthere’s four of them so like if you didn’t get enough on the first watch uh there’s two kung fu masters right masterShiffue and Master Ugay and they have different styles they’re both veryeffective teachers so Master Shifue isprescriptive he tells the Furious Five who they are what they need to do he hasa documented regimen and it works but there’s friction often times like theplot is based on that friction ugay is a little different he offers somethingdeeper and in some ways frustrating because he speaks truth but then he doesn’t give any answers he leaves thatto the student to go figure out for him it’s about invitation not necessarily instructionand I wonder if the podcast could lean more into that ugay posture stilloffering clarity grounded in truth that Brandon’s talking about but with maybemaybe just a little more openness so listeners aren’t being told who they are what their growth has to look like butinstead the invitation is open-ended to discover it for themselves i’m not saying that you’re not doing that butmaybe there could be more of that that’s that’s good feedback yeah I think so but I’m thinking too ofjust I I I actually think some of our listeners get frustrated with us for forthis kind of principle in other ways too where sometimes it sounds like we’re giving conflicting advice depending onwho the caller is for the week you know so one caller will call in and be like this and this and this is going on in mylife and Brandon and I kind of go this direction and be like yeah this is where you should be headed and you know we feel like we’re right in line and thenthe next week someone with almost an identical story comes in and we’re like actually what you should really consideris this this this and this instead be more temperate be more and and I’m sure our listeners are like so which one isit like like those seems to be in it’s like well the situation was differentthe target that we were talking about was slightly different the intention was slightly different and the client themsel was different and so I I think Ihear you trying to say and I guess that’s one I’m wondering when we get guests on the show what our first andforemost thing with a guest is whoever’s in front of us is the person we’re trying to help exactly um and and yetand yet the the broad messaging then kind of gets a little bit sort of like that’s why I love dialectics so much isthat I I feel like we could have two different episodes give two different sets of advice and I could say yes bothi agree with both and some people call that a copout um but I actually feellike that’s that’s how it kind of has to be because each person is on their own journey and you’re meeting them therespeaking their language understanding where they are at right i mean I think there’s some of that and it’sinteresting because the rest of us just have to observe that and that’s part of it although many of your podcasts don’thave guests right and that may be the the it’s interesting this whole invitation thing because I think when itcomes down to good therapy um even even good fathering um there there’s thisprinciple of of of invitation and I I don’t think it’s talked about enoughwhere like when I was a young therapist running groups I was hellf fire andbrimstone and I had all the answers and I was going to like force you to force you to follow and do it this way um andif you if you were to sit in my groups now and you were to ask the clients in those groups they they they’d tell youthat that’s not that’s not how I am i teach um I’ll reflect back like I’llhelp someone see like what you’re you know what you’re getting in your life and but that’s this is up to you nowlike and you know what’s interesting Nate is I I think it’s a lot better for the clients but it’s also a lot betterfor me because I’m not so attached and I’m not so I don’t get burned out with it anymore because the client gets tolive their life and they get to create what they want i’m just simply inviting them to partake or not rightum so yeah I think I think on the podcast especially with guests um we alot of times I think one of the traps we fall into we know we have 40 minutes with these people and it’s like let’sopen the fire hose and like let’s get you some answers before you get on justlike take it like here do this you know um and I think uh I think it would begood to model to the the the audience as a whole that that form of invitationbecause if Tyler and I knew we had six months to work with these people wewould probably back off good therapy is helping the client get to their ownanswers right i couldn’t agree more and so that’s that’s the goal but yeah we westruggle with that sometimes we’re just like here you go boom boom boom boom boom could I could I ask you Nate you’vegot you’ve got the unique experience of actually having um you’ve sat in on treatment with me inmy groups for over a year now a year exactly this week year to year hey ayear yeah sweet good so so I want I would like to know and maybe I don’tknow what you’re going to say to this has your experience with me in groups been different than the experience youhave when you listen to the podcast and how um if it if it is differentuh Tyler you’re an excellent listener and you demonstrate that here on the podcast and in that basement room wherewe have our Wednesday night groups um you’re the same person i don’t see you Idon’t see that you’re wearing a mask i don’t see you showing up differently umI think when it comes to in that room you have 20 men who arethere to share their feelings and you’re there to sort of guide them on the podcast especially without a guest youget to freelance a little bit and and pontificate if you will and I think that lends itselfto revealing more of maybe your internal bias than it does in the basement it II’ve only rarely seen you show up for someone uh in our groups that wasn’teffective it it’s been very very rare you pride yourself on non-jud beingnon-judgmental and I think that shines for me that’s that’s why I’m in if if it wasn’t that way I wouldn’t be there andso I respect you for that okay so so if I’m hearing you right though the difference is isthat you you experience me as being the same person but my biases come out more on the podcast than they do in the groupand that’s just because I I speak more in the podcast is that what you’resaying no i think when you have a client or a guest because your guests are notclients but they are here to get help from you you’re very focused on themtheir language their experiences their problems i love that when they’re absentthen you have a microphone and a platform to talk about whatever it is you choose to talk about and that’swhere maybe it’s less nonjudgmental because there isn’t someone that you’refocused on it’s your own you’re showing your heart and guts to the world and uhyou know you’re basically seeing the water that I’m swimming in because there’s no one else there for me to attend to precisely you got it okaygotcha yeah so So I wonder if by nature that’s probably going to happen a little bit no matter what with anybody umespecially with where part of my strengths as a therapist happen to be with the attention to the other um andso that’s why that’s why I was asking because I was think wondering if it’s something about the podcast itself that’s drawing that out or if it’s thefull experience all across the board it’s my fault Tyler i will say most of these quotes I wrotedown are from Brandonyeah I love it yeah um and I and Nate I don’t I know we’re getting we’re gettingkind of close to the end of the hour here and I don’t even know if we’ve really addressed what you or if we even come to any full answers or not for whatyou’re saying other than I want to say thank you to you for like bringing this up and having the courage i also got tohave to acknowledge that um you uh you you may have missed your callingin life if you didn’t go be like a lawyer a debater or somethingum because you’re you’re you’re really good at keeping people engaged while also being able to have some kind ofconfrontation and uh I just want to say that I I hope that people honestly people who are listening to this arepicking up on the way that you’ve handled this discussion today because there is so muchskill and talent in what you’re doing right now that I just I just want to acknowledge that to you and say thankyou thanks for hearing me thanks for hosting me was nervous that it wouldn’t be so uh peaceful yeah the the uh thehealing journey we talk about your support system and there’s different there’s a funnel and there’s differentlevels of people and um I I think about good friends um good friends are peoplethat will be honest with you even if it’s difficult and Nate I I don’t knowyou that well right but you’re a good friend of the show you’re a good friendof what we’re doing and you’ve you’ve demonstrated that today um this is whatit’s all about i I love this um I I’m open to feedback i think I’veheard some of the things you’ve said today i hope so um and I just really appreciate you being on so um what Iwhat I want to just just what I want to say my own takeaways are just so that I make sure that I’m I think I heard youtoo Nate is something that I’m walking away with for myself is is that I can be more cognizant ofum I can try to be more cognizant of the in internal biases that I have so that I can speak in a little bit more of yousaid specifics so I can speak in more specific ways around specific principlesrather than throwing throwing blankets over the top of things sometimes um that’s something that I want to walkaway with and I want to try to do a better job at and uh I don’t know if that’s what you were trying to get across in the beginning but that’s whatI’m leaving with today what what I what I took away is Tyler needs to stop beingsuch a jerk i’m just Hey if we were if we’re talkingshifu and ugay I think I’m probably more of an Ugay and you’re more of the sheifu my my friend i don’tyeah um and I would I do want to say this to what you said Brandon about friendship ihave had a different experience with with Nate and um I’ve witnessed whatwhat a Sorry I’m going to get emotional on this but I’ve witnessed what a good friend Nate actually is to those men that he interacts with heis he is the perfect embodiment of being non-judgmental completelyloyal fully committed and willing to say the hard things in in kind ways like you heardhim say it and anyone who has Nate as a friend in their life is uh would consider themselves lucky to have thatso um what you feel Brandon is exactly the way he shows up yeah you guys areawesome let let me show you let me give you one more piece of friendship before we bounce uh and now I I would turn I Ican’t see you but if you’re listening to this podcast my invitation to all of usTyler Brandon myself uh any future guest any futurelistener maybe you could stay curious about the ways your language includes or excludes people uh if we’re seriousabout bringing these healing tools to as many people as we can it’s it’s worthwhile for us just tocheck whether our words open the door wider to healing or whether they narrow the entry and at the end of the day ifsomething that these guys say rubs you the wrong way let me give you my testimony my testimonial from personalexperience the program works listening to the podcast isn’t taking action it’sa great step but if you’re ready to take action and you want healing in your lifeI can only with everything I have inside of me please give the healing journey anopportunity to work for you because it does it worked for me and I wouldn’tcall myself maybe you’re a your typical listener to this show but I if you cansee past any sort of offense and go into the program I I can promise you thatthere’s healing to be found wow geez man we’ll have you on the show every single week if you want to come on and say thatat the end nate I love you guys thanks for having me on nateyeah all right you guys thank you for being here thank you for listening um ifyou’re listening and you’re thinking “Wow I really appreciate Nate and what he’s brought up.” Uh we’d love to haveyou on as a guest too um come come talk to us about whatever tyler and I are wide open and we’re willing to listenand we’re also willing to to tell you some things as we talked about today so thank you for being here and until next