Is My Partner Weaponizing The Language Of Recovery?

In this episode Brannon and Tyler talks about what happens when the language of recovery gets used as a shield—and how a partner can feel stuck, confused, and hopeless when “recovery” words don’t match real change. They read a listener question about a long-term pornography addiction, betrayal trauma, and the painful dynamic of entitlement, pressure, and manipulation. Together they unpack the difference between being inherently worthy of love and using that truth to avoid accountability, plus what real recovery actually looks like when it’s happening.

Is my partner weaponizing the language of recovery? Tyler, can I jump right in with a reviewthat we got? Yeah, let's get going, man. It says, "Very glad to have theopportunity to call in. These guys ask great questions, have have a wisdom about them and experience behind theirwords. They're full of compassion and care. Hopefully, they are as big of a blessing to others as they are to me.Keep up the good work, Therapy Brothers. TMBB TMBB,that's awesome, man. Thank you. We We know that this is someone who came on and was a guest on our on our podcast,and I just want to say it was a pleasure for us to visit with you. And um and thank you for your willingness to comeon and sort of share this little tiny chapter of your story with other people so that they can benefit from it.That guy's amazing. He he first came on, was an awesome guest, um talked openlyabout his his own struggles and his own recovery and where he's at. And then he turns around and gives us a review. Likethat guy's freaking awesome. What a what a stud, man. Yeah. Really appreciate it.Yeah, we do. We appreciate that. We love your feedback uh anyway that it comes. So thank So thank you.Um Brandon, before we jump into our topic, we got a question that was actually submitted through uhtherapyros.org. Um, and so we're going to read thatquestion and that'll be the subject of our of our episode today. But before we do that, we are right up against it,man, where we've got Radiant Dawn just around the corner. Now is the time to sign up. Like, it's time to to step intoit. Get yourself a spot and sign up. Um, because we're just like a little over amonth out. Yeah, it's coming. Yeah, we're right at a month. We're right at a month out right now. We havewe have a lot of people already signing up, but um we took a we took a break from it for a year last year because wedecided to do some other stuff with our time and our energy towards like some other forms of coaching and things forourselves and now we're back and ready to go, man. And it's like it's one ofthe best things we do all year. So, I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. So, so if you're if you're interested inthis, it's the it's a women's retreat that we have. It's all about healing from your own sh trauma, shame, kind ofreconnecting with your true identity. It's a it's kind of a spiritual walk. Um, and it's a beautiful process. Um,radiantdon.org is where you can learn more. Take three days and walk out with a whole new perspective. Um, and a bunchof support and life experiences that truly changed your life. So, we wouldlove to have you. All right, Brandon, let's uh let's jump into the topic today. This is aninteresting one. We get this kind of question in lots of different forms, but I'm going to read the whole question and then we'll kind of come back and piecetogether a couple of different places we could go with it. Okay, sounds fun. So, it says, "Day was nine years ago. Myhusband is still acting out with porn almost daily currently in Reclaim Your Heart and tells me this program andothers like ARP, Meno and I podcast, etc. teach him that he is worthy of lovewithout changing a thing. Is he weaponizing that against me? He says hefeels he has made changes, knows he needs to make more, but isn't implementing tools learned from therapyor your podcast, even the obvious ones, like replacing numbing out on screenswith healthy habits. He tells me he is entitled to sexual experience, and if I'm not willing to right now, he doesn'twant to have an affair, so porn is the only option. He's looking to me for affection and love to help him get overhis negative feelings, but I don't know how to be supportive and loving anymore.If he hasn't made significant changes after 9 years, is there really any hope?Addiction there before we married, things like strip clubs and acting out, 10 years into our marriage, and pornuntil now. We've been married 29 years.Okay, that's a good question. There's a lot there. Yeah, we could probablywe we'll do our best to go where we feel like is the right way to go with this one. This could go probably three or four different directions and probablybe productive. So, well, and just a little caveat whenever we get questions like this, we don't getthe full story. So, we get we get the question. And if we were to talk to himand get his perspective, talk to her and get her perspective, really understand what was going on, we might givedifferent answers than what we talk about today. These answers will be based off of patterns that we see and typical thingsthat happen. So this is a pretty typical kind of a question that we get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So um so we'lldive into this the best that we can um and and pull out the principles from itthat we we can because there's a lot here. Yeah. So, let's let's start with the first line because I think there's Ithink there's probably a kernel of truth in what's here and there's probably a different kind of answer that you and Imight give than what maybe this guy is interpreting in his brain when we say what we're saying. So, she saidcurrently in reclaim your heart and he's currently in reclaim your heart and tells me this program and others. Shelists all the others teach him he is worthy of love without changing a thing. Yeah.And then she says, "Is he weaponizing this against me?" Depends. Um,so let's start let's start with that line. Is it true, Brandon? Do we do we believe this and do we teach this thatevery single person that we work with is worthy of love if they change nothing?Absolutely. 100% no question. So So that's true. Like we actually dobelieve that you and I both believe that that that your value, your worth, no matter who you are, what station of lifeyou're in, no matter what you've done, it does not absolve you of the innatelike value as a human being that you are lovable. Well, and I think even the the personthat wrote this question would agree with that. I think most people would would would say yes, that is the truth.Um that's an obvious truth. And but what's interesting is for recovery forsomeone struggling with an addiction um they definitely don't believe that andthey haven't for a long long time. And so it's good to get that message. It'sgood to start to understand that and start to believe that that's the work of recovery. Um the question is is is it isthat being weaponized? Yeah. Right. So, so that new knowledgeand this is something that is something to watch for in re in recovery in general. There's a form of denial thatjustifies staying stuck by you by weaponizing the knowledge that you gain in order to justify staying stuck. Andwe call that intellectualizing where you go and take the knowledge you've gotten and then you use it for the wrongpurposes. So that's possibly what's happening here where he's taking the kernel of truth that we actually believethat he is absolutely worthy of love. And now he's using that on you and yourrelationship to back you off from the fact that he's still choosing bad decisions that aren't good for him orfor your relationship. And then he's saying, "But but hey, like I'm stillworthy of love." Well, so let's Tyler, let me give you some absurdexamples and and just kind of flush this out a little bit. Um,okay, this is absurd examples and I'm doing this on purpose. Let's say, let'ssay an angel from God came down and told him, "In this life, you are supposed toact out every day." Told you. absurd.In this life, you're supposed to act out every single day because that's who you are. That's how God made you and you beyou. What? Like, what would be the right thing for him to do?Well, if he wasn't schizophrenic,I'm going somewhere with this. I know. um then then he should follow through onwhat God told him to do. Why? Because that would be like livingin congruence with the core of like who I'm trying to be, which is someone who listens to my higher power and who livesaccording to those values, right? And I if if God tells me to do somethingopposite than what I'm doing and I'm not in congruency, I'm not in alignment withthat truth, um then I am I living as if I'm I'm likeperfectly loved. No. Right. So this is an important principleto understand. Um now now why would you say no? How do we know that?Well, because that's going to cause like that's going to cause dissonance and that dissonance is going to causediscomfort up to the point of suffering because we induce our own suffering by not living in accordance with the ourstated values. And then what are the repercussions of that? Like how does what's the fallout of that on relationships and things likethat? Well, from the inside out, it starts with it starts with the a deeper wrestle with shame, increased anxiety,higher depression, and then it spills into relationships. Less concentration, less self-confidence, lesscommunication, less ability to be real and honest. Um, and so it spills into like other places,but but hang on. But I go to this program and they say I'm loved. So So I'm still loved even though I doall those things. So, like can't I can't I have like my cake andeat it too here? Can I have both? Yeah. But there's a and this is where Ithis is where I think it there's like a separation or a gap that happens in in the line of thinking is because I'mtrying on this new belief that I'm loved no matter what, which is the truth. Which is the truth. I'm trying that on.I haven't actually gotten it to sink all the way into my heart enough to actually believe that I'm loved no matter what.So what I'm giving my wife is the thought process that I want to believe. But if I actually believed that that wastrue, what happens with beliefs? You actually act based on your beliefs.And so you would be acting in a way that's in accordance with taking good care of yourself because you're lovable.Are you saying that you can actually use truthas denial? He's this guy is right now for all. Isn't that Isn't that so? That'sfascinating though because it really comes down to his his intentions likewhat's going on inside of him because he's he's lobbing out there. I'm loved no matter what. Which is true. He'strying to exercise. He's now planted that seed and he's exercising trying togrow that seed. But the only way he's currently exercising it is by using it to justify still doing all the thingsthat rob him of the of the belief that he's lovable right now.Like I said, Tyler, we don't know everything that's going on here. What what if he in his heart of hearts andand let's say like it he checks it out with his group like he's working his recovery hard and he he doesn't actuallyfeel like he's acting out and it doesn't seem like he's acting out and but hiswife is coming along and saying, "Oh yeah, you're relapsing. You're relapsing. You're relapsing." Um thenthat's not denial. Correct. Well, he needs to own that and he needs to own it wholeheartedly so that she can then makedecisions which means that their marriage is probably over because his value system is not going to align withher value system in a way that that can be conducive for them to have a close connected relationshipor or there's got to be some shift in perspective one way or the other. one way or the other and an understanding oflike what does it mean to show up in your congruency and in your alignment and and in relationship with me at thesame time. Um here's here's there's a challenge to that Brandon withthis example you're using because I see it all the time when you've been living with layers of denial and you're justbarely starting to peel those off. Sometimes you come back to your partner and you say this is just who I am andeven that is still laced with layers of denial and then like 2 3 years down the road they're back going like oh my goshI that's not actually who I am like but the pendulum goes both ways and thisis where it becomes problematic is when you come back to who I am is this nonsexual being who who never has anyfeelings or thoughts or anything. But that's not true either. You're still lying. Yes. um or or this is just who I am andI'm going to go like look at porn for four hours a day and it's just who I am. That's not alignment either.Is that in alignment with actually loving yourself? Right. Right. So, so the real questionhere, and it's interesting where we're getting here, Tyler, the real question is for this guy, hopefully he listens tothis. The real question is for him is his his uh sexuality and what he doeswith his sexuality. What does it look like for him to be a powerful healthy man who can create lovewith himself and others? What does his sexuality look like while embracing his sexuality? whileembracing it and stepping into it um and owning it. Um versususing the truth that he has loved no matter what to justify compulsive behaviors that hurt him andhis wife. Right. Exactly. That's that's probably some of the next step kind of wrestle inthe process of recovery. And if to this partner who sent us this question, if I saw my partner taking ownership for thatgoing like, "Yeah, my behaviors don't line up with that belief and this is what I'm doing to change." It may bemessy and not perfect, but that effort would probably be enough to be like, okay, like I get that, but but when it's being used as a weapon instead and andwe'll get to this next part of the question, and it's laced with other layers layers of denial, you can see whythis partner is feeling a little bit like beside herself and hopeless going like, geez, I feel like I'm fighting atotal uphill battle, and I I'm almost feeling being made to feel like I'm crazy a little bit. For sure. It's it's a really difficultform of betrayal trauma because it's like he's basically saying I'm in recovery soget off my back and yet I'm acting out in this addiction constantly. So like there it's hard to find hopethere. It's hard to find hope of like we can have a marriage where she canactually have her values valued and and supported of things like fidelity andtrust and th those type of things. It it almost feels impossible um when that'sgoing on. Yeah. And well and I think it's like again it's hard to parse out the pieces of truth from the denial. Right. Solet's let's go to the next level of this. And here's the next. Let's help help me and our audience, Brandon, pullout what might be true here and then show how it might be laced with denial.He tells me because this is what you were just saying. He tells me he is entitled to sexual experiencesand if I'm not willing to right now and he doesn't want to have an affair, porn is the only option.Um, have you ever heard that one before, Tyler? It's it's so funny to me that whenyou're dealing with someone with the addicted brain, they haven't even thought far enough ahead to realize thatthey're not going to die without sex. Yeah. Um so, so it doesn't even register tothem that that acting out, not acting out is actually an option.So, here's the here's the thing. There there's so much in this. And when I hear that, I just think the the layers ofdamage that it's doing, but there's truth, Brandon. like what you just said, he's saying to her, "Hey, I'm a sexual being and I need to havesexual experiences." That that is true. Um, but there's huge problems in in inin what she's saying that he's saying. There's huge problems in it here. Um, soyes, that's true. But don't take that, and this is where it that is used asdenial. Don't take that then to justify pressuring your partner and or actingout. Um because pressuring your partner and treating her as if you're titledentitled to sex with her, which you're not. You're not entitled to sex with her,right? Um that that is not the truth. Umwhen you take that denial, that's what creates all kinds of problems. And guess what? It's getting you further away fromhealthy intimacy with your partner. Um, so yeah, there there's all kinds ofthings that will come from that that will cause all kinds of problems. You're doubling down on disconnection withoutknowing it because you're putting pressure on a partner to be complicit in your addiction because you haven'tunderstood come to understand that sexual intimacy is bigger than just like whatever it is you've been pursuing foremotional coping or filling the void or getting your answer from her that you're good enough. And so now you're beingauthentic. I put that in quotes by demanding that this happen. And like listen to the justification and blame.So there's blame in this. Like if you won't sleep with me, it's not even a question. Like my only other option isan affair or porn, right? So what? Like come on, bro. Likeyou are a you are a human being who can make your own decisions and you can only decide porn or an affair.Well, and and listen what he's saying to her. He's saying you're failing me. You're failing me. I want to pressureyou and I need to use you. I need I have to use you and confuse you.That that is not turning her on. That is not Yeah. Let's think of the alternativelike because we talk about like that doesn't work. Like let's just talk about what actually would work in thissituation. Um what's the truth? I am a sexual being with drives with drives and desires.It's beautiful. Yes, you are. That's that's all amazing. Um, and that sexthat se sex sexuality, it motivates you to create connection and and lovehopefully in a relationship. And so that's all good. Use that energy. It's amazing. You know, you know, I'm a hugeproponent of it, Tyler, right towards that. But you you used a word that's different than how it's being used currently. And you said that workstowards connection. Use that drive. used that desire to be put towards placesit's going to move towards connection and and deeper intimacy with your partner and right now it's being usedbecause of all the denial in a consumption way rather than a connection kind of a way.Right? So like think about this and and maybe this is like too much in a perfect world like does this even exist? Butthink about if you were a man that trusted yourself,that knew that you were loved completely, just like we teach all the time. Um, and you you just wereconfident and so so much so that you weren't codependent with your partner. So, you didn't get knocked off yourrocker every every look that she gave you, everything that she said. And you could just empathize with her. You couldhold space for her. um you could listen, you weren't defensive. Um you could haveboundaries with her and be honest with her about who you are and what you need and and um and she just felt seen andsafe and um just just lucky to be with you,right? Um now think if that were the case versus what we're hearing in this questionnow. Are we guaranteeing sex in that moment? No.You need to not do that for the sex. It needs to not be about that.You're saying to use your sexual desires, drivesas fuel towards deeper intimacy, but it might not even end with sex, right? Andthen if you do it knowing that it might not even end with sex and not having that expectation and you love herfiercely, you love her so much and she just feels seen and loved,she's going to blossom, she's going to open, she's going to be there and um atleast you give her a chance for that. There's no guarantee because she has her own stuff that she needs to work on andher side of the fence, but you become an asset to her to actually be like sovulnerable to the depths of intimacy. Um, what he's doing is destroying whatI'm talking about like like the other side of what I'm talking about. The opposite,right, Tyler? Yeah. This is this is probably a terrible analogy, but it's what's coming to my brain right now, so I apologize inadvance. Um, I've get the picture of like we've got this guy, he's gotgod-given built-in drives and desires of sexuality. They're powerful and they're being like kind of funneled in likethink of it coming from a fire hydrant out into a fire hose. And at the end of the fire hose, there's a valve that keeps it closed like a firefighter has.And then that you open that valve and then the water goes wherever it's going to go. Right? What this guy's doing ishe's got the valve at the very end that's been closed. Now he's telling his wife that it needs to be open, but thatit's her fault that it's closed. And now he's gone and dug a bunch of holes in the hose along the way. And there's likethere's just like leakage going out every which direction so that by the time it gets to the end, if there wasanything left called intimacy, there'd be nothing left. Yeah. And and he's he's pursuing like aphysiological experience and trying to consume somebody and then he's spendingall of his energy in other places rather than channeling it and harnessing it into saying this drive should lead me towant to take care of myself and others. So I'm going to use that drive to take care of my partner and myself in ahealthy way. And it's okay that I would want sex with her. Absolutely right. Of course I want that. But when Ilet go of the expectation and I put that energy into the action of loving,that's the best chance for it then to become this upward cycle of connection where there's the pressure comes off ofher. I'm viewing sexuality in a much broader perspective for the power thatit is rather than the thing that I'm like a slave to and and then it can beused as a tool for deeper connection, right? Um that I actually love thatanalogy. Um and and we see that we see it all the time, Tyler. And um it's itreally is like I I want to just kind of stop andgive space for I understand why he's doing what he's doing. Yeah. When when when there's been anaddiction, think of the think of the combination of things that have gone on.I'm consuming w women to feel good to feel good about myself in a fake way,right? And especially through my sexuality through my sexuality. I consume women to feel good. And when I consume women tofeel good, it feeds and fuels my shame that I'm bad. And so then I turn to mypartner to have them validate that I'm okay. and I try to force them to beintimate with me or have sex with me because I need to consume them to feel okay. They reject me. They don't wantanything to do with me sexually, which feeds and fuels the shame. I'm notloved. I'm not seen. I'm not And so, one of the one of the ways to defend againstthat shame is to turn toward it and to blame back and and tell them thatthey're failing you. And then it's just a downward spiral from there. So wherethis starts, it's not about him just like just just stopping this behavior.But it comes back to the first part of this question. It's actually the very statement he's using against you is where this starts.Yeah. But you said it, Tyler, where is he like is he using it as a weapon or ishe genuinely knowing that he is loved and and and what what is the gap betweenbecause what I'm hearing in this question I don't like I said I don't know them I I don't know what's actually going on here but what I'm hearing fromher question is there is something missed here in recovery that'snot happening. The words are there, but the actual be has not shifted.And so there's trauma work in between. There's trauma in betweenactual shifting in terms of the way that he's going to show up with his wife.Right. That's exactly right. That's the work that's missing. That's why there's the language that turns into denial tojustify old behaviors because the actual deeper work is still hopefully inprocess. If not, it needs to be. But you you got to it, Brandon. It's the shame and trauma work that's there. It's theit's the statement of I'm actually lovable. I have to do the work to create space to cultivate the ground in my ownsoul to actually have it be possible that the seed that I'm lovable could be planted and sprout and grow. And that'sgoing to come through trauma work, self-compassion, daily charge, like connection with other people, practiceof vulnerability in places where I can be held and understood. And in our group, it's all it's all it'sall of that work that has to happen because the pathway to deeper intimacyin your marriage is actually the pathway into the cave and out the other side ofradical self-acceptance. I can just hear it. And and I I I don'tknow who this guy is at all, but it's like, yeah, yeah, but you guys just don't know. You don't know how difficultshe is. You don't know how good my heart is that I've been working recovery. I've been doing these programs. You guys justdon't get it. Like, you have no I like I have tried all of the things that you said. Like I've tried it. And and so nowit's easier for me to give up, be in this victim place, and look at her andsay, "She'll never give me a chance again." And so my better option is to try to force all these things and try tojust go for it that way rather than actually like because if I show up as all this the perfect guy that you'retalking about, she's not going to give me a chance. Yeah. Well, and the truth is is that itprobably will be a more delayed response than you want it to be if you were to do that. So, it might get discouraging. Um,two two thoughts to that, uh, Brandon. Um, from a very very personal place, I I'vebeen that this dude, like beating my head against a wall, likebeen jamming up the end of my hose the whole time, blaming it on other people and situations while I had other holesin the hose, putting all the energy in other places that didn't really yield good fruit. So, um, from a very knowingplace, I would say if you are that guy who's saying what Brandon just said, um,I feel you. I I I understand that and and I will say that there is a differentway. Like there's absolutely a different way and it's it includes the things Brandon's talking about right now. Um,there's hope here. So that frustration, that hopelessness that you're feeling is a result of hearing those new things andthen doing the same things over and over again, thinking you're hearing and doing the new things and saying you've doneeverything when what you've really done is the same thing over and over again. um instead of actually stepping into adifferent stream, actually letting go of the expectation, the need like I've gotto have this this, you know, it's like no, like there's a different pathway where you can keep and accept yoursexuality without having it be the driver of your whole life. Um that'stalk about slavery. Like think and look at the look at the wake of destruction that has left in your path. like itwould be worth any work, any effort to learn to have not that not be the fuel source the way that you're living it,right? The here's the scary thing though, Tyler,is and it's this sabotage that happens and it happens on all sides of thefence. If he actually chooses real recovery,um, it could very well end this relationship. Maybe. Right.That's that's why on both sides the work you're talking about is actually applicable to both sides of this. Likethis partner who sent us this question, if she's not doing her own shame resiliency, if she's not doing her owntrauma work, if she's not working in that path towards complete self-acceptance, um then then then she's never going tobe able to be in the strong enough place to then accept whatever the reality is if and when it comes. Exactly. So, soshe's got to stay unhealthy enough to stay in the relationship and he's goingto stay unhealthy enough to stay in the relationship. And if And then they can blame each other forbeing unhealthy but never let each other go. Exactly. And live in hell.And And so here's the beautiful here's the beautiful part of it. whether you're the betrayed or the betrayeris you actually have the option. You have an option here. You're not powerless in this situation. And thatoption is for you to say, you know what, regardless of them, like whateverthey're doing in their recovery, whatever they're doing, like I'm I'm doing mine. I'm step I'mtaking extreme ownership of myself, of my own healing, of my own peace, my ownhappiness. Like, I'm taking ownership of that and I'm going to go through a process that might be excruciating. I'mgoing to have courage. I'm going to step in. I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going allinand I'm going to find myself and understand who I am. And hopefullymy partner does that too and we find out that we love each other like we're we're pretty compatible. But that might not bethe case. So, right, it kind of goes towards the thebottom part of this question, you know, and right where you're going, Brandon, maybe we could spend a little bit more time on this. said, "He's looking to mefor affection and love to help him get over the negative feelings, but I don't know how to be supportive and lovinganymore." And part of I'm suspecting part of what's causing you to not know how to beloving and supportive anymore is that you've tried to be loving and supporting and been complicit in the rules of thegame. That doesn't work. You know, you've you've probably been the one to say, "Okay, well, let's havesex every day and that'll make you all better." But then all it is is just an extraction from you every day. and you feel more empty, more resentful, morebitter. Of course, you're going to have less of a heart to love him. Mhm. Um whereas the effort really needs to becontinually going and reconnecting every day to your values and then making goalsto step into those values in the way that you live your life every day, which by nature of that will lead to healthyboundaries. And when you have healthy boundaries, you can look at the situation from afresh set of eyes that are actually still loving and say, "Oh, wow." Like, Idon't want to be complicit in that part of it anymore. So, I'm going to do this and this and this. I'm going to invite this kind of change this way instead ofbeing complicit the way that I have been thinking that I was helping things go right. Tyler, Tyler, I've I gave an absurdexample earlier. Um, now I'm going to give a stupid question. Um,okay. Like, is that real? Is there actually women who have been betrayed in yourgroups and and that you've worked with that have actually in a way broken awayfrom that old toxic relationship um worked their own recovery and foundsome peace and healing um unto themselves. It's like um and I would add a word tothat Brandon. There's like a inside that peace there's like a groundedness that they find. Um and sometimes what'swhat's really interesting is when they work towards that peace and groundedness, sometimes it's a call intothe relationship further and sometimes it's a call out of the relationship further. So it actually works both ways.You know, where think about this like the last I remember this happening probably at least four different women I talked to right at the end of our lastRadiant Dawn like retreat. One of them was like I was like, "How was your experience?" You know, and we're justkind of getting ready saying our goodbyes or whatever. And she just said like, "I I am in a total state of seeingmy situation with a completely different set of eyes than I've ever seen." And she said, "I'm going to go home and I'mgoing to do this and this and this. I'm going to have this conversation." And she said, "It just feels right." And I never could have considered that thatwould even be an option for me right now. Yeah. Right. Something shifted in her where she was going to go home and that oneactually ended up in a divorce. Yeah. Um not because she went home and said, "I want a divorce, but but because shewent home as a changed being and stepped into her life with that little bit ofchange and it and it fostered some of the the changes." Now, that was two years ago. If I were to go right now andtalk to her and ask her again, she would say that she has no regrets about those decisions because she's still living inmore of an alignment of congruency of who she is than when she was before she went. Yeah. Right. And I've had we've had otherwomen who same thing even that same even that same event went home and said, "Yeah, I'm not going to do this anymore.I'm going to change this and this and this about our lives." And when they did, there was turbulence and turmoilbecause there was an effort to try to pull it back to what it used to be. She held the line. She got some continuedsupport and structure through it. And what it lo and behold, all of a sudden in him, he started going like, "Oh man,like I'm going to lose her unless like I maybe decide to take a look at my ownstuff differently." And two years later, they're still working on a marriage and they're in a better spot now than they ever were. Umbut that was because one person decided to start living more congruently to their values and and that congruence isan invitation for the people who want to come along and it's it's the closing ofa gate for the people who don't want to play that way. Right. Right. I if I can give an exampleof this. Um years ago I was working with this couple and um I I met with themright when they were starting the whole process and um he in a real humblegenuine way. He went and worked the 12 steps and um set up his recoverycapital, got a support system and um just really discovered him his maschealthy masculinity and who he was again. Like his his addiction like really blessed his life because he hewent and worked recovery and um it was awesome. It's one of the best things tosee, right? Um, fast forward, it was like three or four years later at fromwhere where he started and and she was working on her recovery, but she came inand she's like, I love him. I am so blessed to bemarried to him and um, he just shows up for me in all the ways and I don't wantto have sex with him like ever. And I need to do my own trauma work.like I got to I got to work on me here. And she wasn't gaslit and manipulatedinto coming into therapy with me because he was pressuring her to have sex withhim at all. Like that wasn't there at all. And so she was coming in with thisheart really full of love toward him and a real desire to be intimate with himand knowing that she had her things in the way that were hers and she had thischildhood trauma that we needed to work through. We did some amazing EMDR sessions with her which broke free a lotof this stuff and helped them actually practice intimacy together. Um now asI'm telling this story Tyler um you can see how partnership can workum in a different way than what we usually hear which is my spouse is bitthis is what we usually hear. My spouse is unhealthy and annoying. Um, if they would change, I'd be happier.Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they're the they're the object of my pain. Yeah.And we hear it from both sides. That that's that's exactly what it is. They're the object of my pain. If they would do something different, then wewould be good. But the reality is, look at this couple I just gave the example. What did bothof them do? they they actually this sounds so weird because it actually invited the betterrelationship is both of them turned inward and said how do I help things go right yes that's well putyou know um so so now I'm and helping things go right is what is my accountability in this for my own goodhealth my own life and and when I do that I am offering up the invitation forsomeone who wants to be on the same kind of spiritual path that marriage is to to come along with me and we can learn andgrow together even if it's bumpy and messy In general, when I hear the the the likethe entirety of this question, um I hear a system that is quiteoverattached and codependent and on both ends. Um he's playing he's playing thislike you know this instrument the way he knows how. He's he's pushing the buttonshere and pushing them there. He's working his recovery there, but like acting out over here like um he's he'sorchestrating something quite um think of the effort that's going intothat. There's a lot of effort. He's got to be tired. Yes. But there's a part with her and and and this is why she asked the questionand the good news here for her is thatif if the question in the end with all of this is what what what should I do? What do I do with this? where do I go?The the good news is is that she actually has an option to to shift the way things are are going and what'sgetting created in her relationship, but she's going to have to face a fear.And what what's that fear? I think it's it's like one of the biggest fears we all have, which is thatif I actually step into my authenticity, the person that I've spent the last 29 years with might reject me. even evenwhen I'm in hell with that person, right? Yeah. Isn't that crazy? But I at least I at least have a personthat's pursuing me by telling me everything that I'm doing wrong. Whereas I on the other side of that I might havenobody. I at least have some financial stability. It doesn't look bad to the neighbors that we got divorced. Doesn'thurt our kids. It doesn't like all of all of the repercussions of you gettinghealthy yourself. Like there's so many repercussions that could happen. So,this is why we turn back and be like, "Well, dude, why don't you just change? Why don't you change and then we'llRight." Yeah. She's done that long enough. She's been in this long time.Nine nine years. No wonder she's like feeling so hopeless and like she's asking the question, you know? Um, isthere really any hope after nine years? Like, think, do you hear that question? Do you hear the energy behind that?Yeah. like, h, and now I'm still here waiting for him to change.And that's okay. Like, if if God's telling you to wait, then go back to God and ask, "What do I do in the meantime?"Um, if God's telling you to go, then go back to God and say, "Help me figure out how to do that." Um, and and I imaginethat in both cases, in most cases, at least what we see with our clients is the answer to that question is going tosay, start taking better care of yourself. Um, start stepping into your values.Start accepting your true identity. Stop waiting for him to be the one that'sgoing to be the answer to your identity and your happiness. I I I've always thought this is really weird like inthese relationships when there's the toxic part of the addiction that's involved is the person who's not doingthe addictive things, they're still going to the toxic person and trying to get their value from them, theiracceptance from them. And it's like you're going into like a a like a tub oftoxic sludge to dig around in there to try to find the answer that you're good enough instead of like saying I'm notgoing into that toxic sludge anymore. I'm going to go on a quest to to get my answers somewhere else. But going therethere's this weird thing of if I keep going into that toxic sludge, I can preserveum I can preserve things not changing too drastically in my life. And andthat's where it's an instinctual thing as a human to to try to protect that.And so, so, and this is the pain point that we always get from people is like, I got to live in this toxic sludge andI'm tired of it and I don't know if I can keep doing it. And it really, it'slike this, Tyler. Here's another analogy for you. If I had a heart conditionand I could either go in and get surgery and there's a 50% chance that I'll die,um, or I can like die a slow, painful death.um that one that's going to just I can't I can't go on hikes. I can't live a life. I can't really just do what I wantto do and it's going to just take me eventually. Um what's my best option?I think that's that's the question every person should be asking like in this scenario right now according to thisquestion and like you said we don't have all the details we are on the pathway to a slow painfuldeath. That's what that question's showing. It's like we're gonna see they've been on that path.We've we've been together for 29 years and we've probably got another decade or two ahead of us. And at this accordingto this question, the way the dance is happening um you will what you will learn isum you'll learn you have the opportunity to learn what it's like to have a lot of suffering. Um and and hopefully you'llbecome out a better person for that. or you'll you'll say, you know what,nine years there isn't a lot of movement on the needle. I've been waiting for him to be the answer, and he's not doesn'tlook like he's going to be the answer, at least for the next few decades. So, I I should start taking a look at myselfand figuring out what the answer is for me. Um, and I'm going to start inviting things to go right there because I stillwant connection in my relationship. So, I'm going to start conceptualizing what a healthy relationship is. And I on myside I'm going to start acting like that and he will either come along or he won't. Yeah.And I will either die a quick swift death in the relationship in the next two to three years. It'll be over andwe'll be in a different spot of grief, pain, misery, suffering, consequence, financial struggles, and I'll be free,ready to move on with the next two decades of my life. Or we'll maybe just be right where we're at. And maybethat's okay, too. But I'm gonna accept that if I stay and I don't do something different for myself, then I'm choosingthat. Yeah. Yeah. And and the thing about it is Tyler, you and I can't can't like getpeople to do things because when you say maybe that's okay, too. I want to be like, no, it's not. No. Likeit it has to be. People do it all the time, Brandon. So, it has to be okay because like people choose to do it.There's got to be some reason for doing it. But but it's our job to reflect back in choosing to do that, you're choosingto suffer. And and just know that ju just know that that's what you're choosing into. And and ask yourself whenwe talk about him being in congruency in in alignment, is that in your alignment to choose suffering, to choose living indenial, to choose staying in toxic sludge? And and we're not suggesting go get divorced. Like we're we're notsaying that. What we're saying is step up into your power as a human being. Andyou might go through a time where it's hard change. It's the messy middle. It'sit's conflict. It's struggle. It's pain in that relationship. And that's gettingyou to where you actually want to be in that relationship. Um, and so it is itis being done with the relationship as it is and choosing your recovery, your individual recovery, hoping that thatrelationship survives. And if it doesn't, you'll still be okay. You'llstill be better off doing the work to trust that you know you'll be okay because because you're connected to yourown heart, mind, and soul. You're connected to a higher power and you're making decisions based from that grounded place.Yeah. Um, it always turns out okay. Even if it turns out like in really rough ways, it's always still okay when you'vedone it in that order. Get grounded to yourself, to God, and then make yourdecisions. Yep. Um, this has been a really good discussion, Tyler. A lot. We've pulled alot out of this, and um, I I hope that both if both of themlisten to this, that he's he's in Reclaim Your Heart, so he's going to be listening to this. Yeah. And I would guess he's a greatguy. Hopefully he gets on Reclaim Your Heart and starts up a discussion around it.That would be great. I would guess they're both wonderful people. Um but real recovery is nothappening. And that's let's call a spade a spade. Um it's time to go to thedepths of things. It's time to step over the thresholds of the scariest parts and deal with them so that you can trulylove and love each other. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say to like it to him if this if this description is accurate,do more than listen to the podcast. Go do the healing journey, especially section two. And don't worry abouthaving sex with your wife until you completed section two. And you might have sex with her duringthat time, but like don't worry about it. I don't worry about it. Put put all of your energy through thefire hose towards section two. Actually truly work section two and thenlet's see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. You know, let's We challenge you.Love. Don't just don't just sign up for it and don't just be like, I'm in it and I'm No, actually truly follow through and doit. I'd love to be a part of that journey with you. Absolutely. Yeah.Thank you to everybody who's here listening. Um we hope that this is valuable to you. I know it elicits a lotof different kinds of responses, especially with topics like this. We'd love to hear from you and um you can dothat through writing reviews or going to therapyros.org and submitting a question or or typingin a response. So again, thank you for being here. Until next time, keep onkeeping on.