Why Does Andrew Tate Do Us A Disservice?

In this episode, Tyler and Brannon talks about Andrew Tate’s controversial views and lifestyle, arguing that they promote harmful stereotypes and toxic behaviors. The discussion highlights how Tate’s messages can negatively influence young audiences, leading them to adopt misguided beliefs about success, masculinity, and relationships. Ultimately, the video calls for a more positive and constructive approach to personal development that encourages healthy values and respect for others.

Trancsript (Tap to Toggle)
how does Andrew Tate do us a disservice man how are you doing man i’m
doing well how are you i’m I’m doing okay today good yeah we’re doing doing
all right yeah you seem in a jolly mood
i’m feeling I’m feeling pretty good today nice it’s a It’s one of those things where there’s a lot of stuff in
motion right now and there’s a lot of stress and I know you’re in that same boat with everything that’s going on in your world too but you know I went got
up early this morning did my dailies and was just thinking about like what a good life I have and you know things aren’t
perfect and things are rough and actually some of what we’re going to talk about today is part of that but uh
but it’s good like it feels good it feels good to be engaged in a battle
um for for what I think is a worthy cause and that’s for the hearts of the men and women that we work with i mean
uh I don’t you don’t you just love your career i I feel like one of the really
lucky ones where you know some people go and look for a good job that provides the means they need to then go do the
things they want and I feel like as a result of life experience and the choice
Who is Tate?
of career even though it’s hard and you know emotionally taxing I feel like I
get to come and fulfill my purpose almost every single day so yeah it’s awesome you’re engaged in a battle
you’re fighting a good fight right trying trying to and and and admitting that I know that half of what I’m doing
right now will probably be wrong in a while but but I’m doing doing what I can with a with a whole heart we’re going to
take a look at that today just a little bit right um so uh should we dive into this yeah
let’s let’s jump in and and talk through this we’ll probably have to do some explanation on who is Andrew Tate and
all of that stuff too but yeah let’s dive into it yeah this discussion uh just just to let the cat out of the bag
a little bit is going to be about um embracing masculinity healthy
masculinity and and what that actually means to us um and um like you know why
it’s so important um but you know we’ve recently got some feedback about the way
that we look at masculinity and we wanted to talk about that and give some explanation and and um some
understanding around it so should we start by saying by uh talking about who Andrew Tate is yeah or should we share
Controversial Views
should we share the review that came through first and then talk about Andrew Tate sure go for the review okay so
here’s a review that just came through um it’s one of our very few which by the way thank you to everybody who gives us
reviews um this one came through on the Apple podcast it’s one of the very very
few one-star reviews we get so it’s kind of shocking every time we get a one star which we could use we use you guys
hopping over and giving us some five stars to offset this one star so yeah yeah that just brought us down to a 4
point out out of five which you know dang it um anyway uh this is a this
actually is is a a review that we wanted to read um we want to read all of our reviews if we can we appreciate reviews
and then we want to kind of tie in the Andrew Tape topic because I think it speaks to this a little bit too so in
episode it says the way of the superior man in episode 393 which is our guest
that one Brandon was Ben if you remember Ben oh yeah yeah ben Gold he’s one of my main men love him yeah in episode 393
the hosts explore one theme from David Da’s book while they highlight one theme it’s important to recognize that there
are many other themes in the book that are problematic data’s work has been widely critiqued for promoting a
disturbing view of women namely that they are sexually manipulative inherently chaotic and emotional and
need to be managed and contained as therapists working in this space they have a responsibility to acknowledge
Toxic Masculinity
these problematic themes and explain the harm they cause they didn’t do that i’ve attempted to reach out to the host
regarding these concerns listeners should approach the content with discernment seeking resources that
prioritize mutual respect emotional safety true relational healing it’s
unfortunate that the hosts have chosen to promote this book knowing the content especially when numerous other resources
are available that encourage ground groundedness and self-awareness without degrading women
okay so so if we’re reading between the lines here there’s somebody who feels like the approach taken in the way of
the superior man and some of the other books that we probably reference is probably
um what would be the right word um probably a little too toxic when it comes to masculinity
yeah I think there’s certain books um that are really important
um that are quite um polarizing in many ways we talked about loving what is and
how a lot of people hate that book um well at the top of the list is The Way
of the Superior Man like and uh and the masculine in relationship yeah that that
book yeah and No More Mr nice Guy those ones are all kind of polarizing kinds of books yeah and and yet we recommend them
um and so it’s it’s interesting because
sometimes the principles are hard to stomach when you’re coming from a certain um perspective like hard they’re
hard to grasp um and there’s the you know a lot of a lot of your own stuff
comes up in contrast to that content and you know for us to be called
Misleading Success
out for recommending or talking about that book um I’d love this this is a
great opportunity to talk about why why do we recommend it why do we talk about it why is it important um and and to
acknowledge some things where he might go too far um and why it’s why it’s
uncomfortable um so and that’s kind of where Andrew Tate comes into the equation a little
bit um I think I think I think even the I think
we Brandon would agree with almost everything that is said in this review about what Andrew Tate seems to stand
for at least from our perspective absolutely yes yeah that’s why we that’s
why we brought that up because he would be like the perfect example of what I think is being said in this review about
like hey if if you’re get you’re kind of stepping too far off the edge if you’re
reinforcing this and this and this and this thing right yes yes
so uh and just side note um my first
time that I read Way of Superior Man um I didn’t know like I got I I didn’t
love it me too Brandon the first couple of chapters I was like am I even going to finish this book because the the way
that it was coming across was hitting me in a in like a way that I was causing some causing me to wrestle with things
Impact on Youth
it wasn’t until about the third time that I actually read it and and I don’t know why I kept going back to it um but
the third time that I actually read it that I started to grasp the essence of it and and started to understand what he
was actually truly saying so even even me the first time I read it I was like
whoa toxic principles this is really kind of weird and out there um by the
third time I read it what I what I grasped was you know what a lot of what
is missing in the men that I’m working with is what he’s talking about a lot of
what is missing in the relationships that that I’m you know I’m
trying to help them heal and connect more is what he’s talking about um that is is missing and that is
important to create safety to create trust to understand the nature of who we
are as human beings um and so it’s important um he talks about masculinity
and he doesn’t hold back when he talks about the nature of it and it’s uncomfortable some of he talks about
sexual attraction he talks about um you know a like the feminine a lot he talks
about what’s what it’s like to be in a relationship with the feminine um the
polarity between the two of them the polarity between the two he talks about the nature of femininity and if you put
a judgment on it of like yeah it’s just bad or then it’s yeah it’s not fun to
hear but if you don’t if you’re neutral with the way that you approach the principles that he’s talking about then
Social Media’s Role
you can just understand what he’s saying now yeah I would say Brandon just a
caveat to that is that we you know acknowledging this I’m I’m the same as you Brandon there’s even when I
recommend it I often say to people “Hey I don’t agree with everything in any one of those three books but I agree with
enough of the principles in there.” And I think that’s what you’re missing that that I that I feel like you could get
some value out of it so I’m just going to go out right now and say to everybody whenever I recommend a book any book
probably even including the Bible you know easy um I mean I’m sorry but you
know if if we’re worried about pornography then they probably should have taken Song of Solomon out of the Bible right so um blasphemy
but but no like honestly like when when I recommend any any resource I’m usually
recommending it from a place of I know that like even there’s another book that goes the other direction of where we’re
going to go today called Worthy of Her Trust there’s so many good principles inside of Worthy of Her Trust and it is
so lacking in masculinity yeah it’s teach you teach you how to be weak and yet there’s a ton of good principles
there’s a ton of goodness inside of it and it it would still be something that I don’t fully agree with right almost
every single resource I don’t fully agree with but I look for the principles that seem to apply towards a healthy
wholehearted way of living and healthy wholehearted relationships and that’s why I would end up recommending those
Expert Critiques
things a book like The Way Superior Man if you’re if you’re coming at it from a perspective of you’ve been in a
relationship where you have actually been harmed by weak or immature
masculinity and then you’re being told “Hey my partner’s being told to read this book.” And the guy comes across in
the way of superior man is like you know like over-the-top masculinity then that’s going to feel scary it’s going to
feel dangerous it makes sense why there would be a concern of like why are you recommending this kind of stuff when
I’ve already been hurt by unhealthy masculinity in the past the the right that makes sense yeah but it’s it’s
backwards so it’s like when the betrayed partner comes along and they’re like he
can’t he can’t live those principles like that’s scary that’s the very thing
that is needed is those principles um I’m not saying all of them but a lot
of those principles is what is needed in order for trust to be established in
like if you want your husband to be authentic then he’ll be honest that a
lot of those principles are true and when he’s honest that a lot of those principles are true he’s not
manipulating for love anymore and and to be frank a a weak broken feminine will
not want the masculine to step up will not want the masculine to be strong it’s
Alternative Views
dangerous it’s scary it’s not okay and so they will try to
emasculate and keep pushed down they will although they hate Mr nice guy they
they resent them for being weak and inauthentic but at least they’re safe well they’re but they’re not safe but at
least they think that they’re safe yeah but they’re actually less they’re actually less safe because now they’re living from a place of shame and in a
inauthenticity which then leads to the very behaviors that led to the problem in the first place right and so rather
than have a man that lives on the edge rather than have a man that embraces and owns his sexuality
um rather than have a man who will step up and be honest even if you don’t like it um you want a man who is compliant
and weak and and gives away his masculinity and so it’s uncomfortable
the these principles are uncomfortable especially when you’ve been hurt by men um it’s really uncomfortable to say “I
want a man who actually is honestly masculine.” And and when we talk about
masculinity Tyler and we’re not talking about toxic masculinity we’re not talking about Andrew Tate’s version of
Healthy Role Models
masculinity yeah um we should probably we should probably spell that out for a minute Brandon on Andrew Tate’s version
of masculinity because he has you know basically he’s created a whole life career very successful in speaking to
young men and what he preaches to young men is and if you listen to this there’s some
there’s a whole bunch of truth wrapped up in it principles of truth but it’s pretty toxic too um but he teaches like
think about what’s being spoken to these young men these young men are living in worlds where by and large they’re failing out of schools a lot at a higher
clip than than girls are now they’re you know being more and more disenfranchised
with careers uh social systems everything else and here comes along a man who’s like “All right young men it’s
on you to take responsibility for your choices your success you are the one who has to learn to become powerful and when
you do then you will have all of this stuff you’ll have ladies and cars and
money and power and and that’s what will happen if you step all the way into just
owning your life and becoming a monster and don’t give an F right and now now what he’s done is he’s taken real true
Conclusion
masculine principles about you know things about taking personal accountability being steady strong
owning your power um but what he does and the end goal I think is where it
partly goes wrong in terms of making it uh toxic is he’s a complete narcissist like the the the world
evolves around Andrew Tate which then means he becomes God he doesn’t care
what other how other people feel and it lacks it completely lacks empathy and it lacks it lacks kind of a embracing of
Share Your Thoughts
reverence for the feminine and for women and and all of that stuff and what it’s
what to me it’s really lacking is higher power it’s it’s lacking bigger it’s lacking a higher power god purpose um
something bigger than yourself where you take all of that strongness that
strength and power and everything and then you direct it to the places that God would have you direct it which in my
belief system includes you know I’m a father of four daughters i got my wife i
want to turn around and be a force for good in the lives of my wife and my daughters
as it relates to who God says that I am right and if I embrace all of that that will be me embracing my masculinity then
I’m going to fight for revere protect and guess what you can’t protect your family unless you’re dangerous
yes like you have to learn how to be dangerous and harness your danger for
good purposes otherwise you’re just a weak man who can’t protect your family
right right so so I think the the the point here is I think the fear is is
that if I subscribe to David Da in the way of the superior man I’m going to turn into Andrew Tate right and I think
that and this is like I say the the third time I read it and I understood the essence of it um David Da in that
book in so many ways does something that Andrew Tate doesn’t do and and that’s honoring the
feminine that that’s actually like revering the feminine and honoring the
feminine in so many ways andrew Tate for heaven’s sakes owned an only fans business and that’s how he got filthy
rich objectifying and using women he took a counterfeit of masculinity and
and and got and made a ton and profited off of it and then turned around and
became this pompous masculine guy that doesn’t give an F and is going to live his life and guess what he makes a lot
of money and he gets a lot of girls a lot of people resonate with his message yeah and and and it’s it’s a problem
because of the lack of connection and respect and honoring of the feminine now
whoever left this review would probably say that’s what DEA does he does that he
does that and if you read that there’s just chauvinistic um unhealthy toxic beliefs about
masculinity in there and I would say maybe there’s a few but there is far
more principles of truth in there and I I love what you’re saying Tyler we could
take our favorite book Wild at Heart and there is some things that are off base
believe it or not I’m gonna I’m gonna say this and we might lose every audience member we’ve ever had but some
of Bnee Brown’s stuff is garbage well that’s blasphemy Brandon oh I know how
dare I some of Bnee Brown’s stuff is so off and yet I I’ve so much of it’s
really good i’ve appreciated her so much through the years and what she’s she’s brought out and what she’s talked about
and the principles that she has so we’re not throwing the baby out with the bath water here like she wants us to we’re
not going to do that and and we’re not I don’t want to push anything anything
that harms women ever and I don’t believe that that book
promotes that um but I do know that that book is is if if you don’t understand
what he’s actually saying just like if you don’t understand what Byron Katy is
actually saying you freak out you can’t handle it
so I’d encourage you to go understand the actual essence of it not through a lens of I’m going to tear this apart not
through a lens of I I’m going to fight against it but through a lens of I’m going to be open to this and see what
he’s actually saying then come back to us and let’s have a conversation come on
our show please i would love to discuss this with you any principle in that book
i think that’s something that you know is one of the reasons why I think both of us wanted to speak about this Brandon
is is that when we read a review of you like this really the last of our
intentions is to diminish a hurt or betrayed woman right like we’ve seen it
you know my one of my biggest soap boxes Brandon how many times have you talked me off the soap box of like man these
small men that are just hurting women like D like I just get so mad and angry Um and so it’s hard to try to walk a
line where part of the answer to creating strong men is to reinforce
principles that don’t just wrap it all up in a bow and make it nice and pretty
um but the heart is actually to create I mean like I said I have I say this and I don’t I don’t say this lightly i have I
have four daughters one of them is now married the other three one’s in college the other two are in high school and my
first daughter married an incredible man a man who lives to sticks to his
principles he has a higher power that he that he cultivates relationship with and he shows up and he treats my daughter
with kindness respect authenticity and strength he’s he’s the man he’s the
exact kind of man that I spend most of my career trying to help other men become and dang listen to that promotion
of son-in-law yeah i don’t know if the son I don’t know if son-in-law even listens to me because he just sees me as old an old windbag but um now with that
said I still have three daughters and that are that are not married and
they’re going to be going into the lone and dreary world looking for a man who will preside provide and
protect who will actually show up as a man so that she can be her full self
inside the container of that relationship and and I don’t say this lightly but I would welcome every single
one of my daughters to marry a man who’s in full and authentic recovery because a man who’s in full and
authentic recovery has come to peace with his own shadows he’s learned to
take accountability for his own life and make his own choices he’s learned to wrestle with things bigger than himself and cultivate a relationship with a
higher power he’s learned how to be empathetic and boundaried
who doesn’t want to be married to that guy that’s the kind of that’s the kind of men that we’re trying to help create
in this world so that my daughters have somebody good to marry and I happen to believe in the resources that I
recommend that if you put them together they all come to this kind of culmination of this is what a good man
is right and they’re not perfect you take wild at heart you take worthy of her trust you take away the superior man
and you smash all those things together and what you get is in my opinion what a good man should be um here you know
what’s interesting Tyler like let’s flip the script one of the
problems is is there’s not uh the way of the superior woman book like there
there’s not healthy femininity books out there like not real great if someone has a suggestion that empowers femininity
and empowers women and talks about but let’s flip the script because I am as
passionate and believe in healthy femininity and having that come forth
um more than almost anything in what I do um because our world needs it um and
and a healthy masculine wants that so you know and in us promoting
masculinity and us talking about the way of the superior man um gosh dang it a a good healthy
um way to to step into femininity for women that would make a lot of weak men
uncomfortable that that would make a a lot of weak men fight against it they would hate that
book and I would love it i would invite it um so kind of to kind of kind of go
along with that just maybe a story that happened this week um it’s funny because this these things happened kind of in
the same week we get this review but then I also was just talking to a woman who’s been in a long-term relationship
and she decided to read this book and she was reading it and she’s like “Holy
cow.” She’s like “Our whole relationship isn’t really even about a sex addiction our relationship is about the principles
of this book.” Yes yes and she said and she said “Oh my gosh.” She said and then she used an analogy and she said “I’m a
dancer.” And she said “When I dance with somebody I like to dance with a partner
who really knows how to dance and knows how to lead.” Because if you’re with a
partner who really knows how to lead then all that that partner does is make
you look amazing because they know where they know how to touch you they know how to move you they know how to make you
look beautiful as you’re spinning around and going through all the different moves in the dance and they make it look
so easy that it just makes me look so good i love Yeah and she said “I feel like I’m I’m reading this book and I’m
like oh man like if I would have had this from my husband and this from my husband and this from my
husband I would have been able to just kind of descend into my femininity.” and
she’s and she said “Right now I’ve just embraced all of my masculinity because my femininity doesn’t feel safe in my
current relationship.” And I was like “Oh okay that makes sense to me.” So it’s it’s an
interesting thing to have one partner say this kind of stuff to me at the same time that we’re getting this review and
say “Okay like there’s probably truth in both sides of this.” I have had several
several women thank me for recommending that book to their
husbands like so great and and you know what they’ve gone and they’ve read it and they probably have the same response
you do they they did but but when they actually like understand it they love it
they actually really like that book a lot um because they they understand that
there’s a lot of truth in there um so this isn’t just a book that we hand to men and it’s like their playbook
to just like go become Andrew Tate no we’re not creating Andrew Tates no this
is a book that I would say everybody should should read and and discern and glean whatever they glean from and see
how it triggers them and makes them feel um but it’s healthy for the man and the
woman to understand what masculinity is yeah um I do want to just kind of come
back one more time to to acknowledging that the world that we live in Brandon by the time people find us on both sides
there’s already been a lot of pain a lot of suffering a lot of damage
and you know even in what we’re talking about here sometimes on a podcast we talk about a specific principle and we
don’t acknowledge the bigger broader picture but I acknowledge that there’s on both sides there’s probably a heavy dose of trauma a heavy dose of shame
from the past a heavy dose of probably having been hurt by you know the what I
would call sort of the the counterfeit versions of masculinity
and uh or or weakness inside that and so in our conversation today it’s not
intended to diminish the fact that there is a process and some pain there that has to be acknowledged and worked through well Tyler the the reality is is
and this goes for all of us in anything is like sometimes you’re in a place a
place of development or growth or wherever where you can stomach certain things like you’re you’re ready and you
can process those things and sometimes you’re not and and and if you’re not it
shouldn’t be shoved down your throat um it shouldn’t be forced upon you and but
but there’s this there’s this like process of growth that’s uncomfortable where it’s like okay I’m not quite ready
but I’m going to take a dose of this thing and I’m going to try it on i’m going to like I’ll run it through my
value system and it makes me uncomfortable but like I want to move beyond i want I want to progress and and
that’s that’s therapy um in so many ways and so yes I it’s true Tyler like we’re
not trying to force feed anybody anything or get them to do something that they’re not willing to do before
they’re ready um but at the same time I’m not backing down from
principles of truth um at least the way you see them right and and we would
encourage everybody else to do the same thing take it take everything that you receive
with a grain of salt run it through your own value system and then accept what you feel is true and adjust and and let
go of the rest tyler how have you ejaculated up your spine yet
well so um yeah you know he doesn’t know how to respond to that see
well to your point Brandon I want to go I want to go to your point to what you’re saying and maybe just share a personal part of that i will explain
that later but yeah please yeah really really what that that’s I
think that one is in the way of the superior man I if I remember it’s the end of this it’s one of the last chapters talks about that talks talking
about that and really talking about taking ownership for your own kind of like understanding your own body
sexuality not being ashamed of it that kind of stuff um but yeah know to your
point Brandon I was just thinking about my own personal journey and some of the most pivotal
um books that I’ve read in my own personal journey and really you you
didn’t know this because I hadn’t told you that I was already just barely diving into my own personal recovery
work but you actually sent me a copy of Wild at Heart and right when I was like
broken like completely broken like D-Day had just happened and when I read Wild
at Heart I ingested that thing just man that it just hit me right where I needed
it to right when it needed to hit me and like that and Fathered by God became
amazing resources and then later on I stumbled into and kind of started reading some things you know just the
normal Patrick K stuff and then Worthy of Her Trust came along and there were certain principles of Worthy of Her
Trust that were kind of music to my ears at the time but it didn’t quite sit well either all the way with me and then I
was introduced to several other books and I started going on this like masculinity kick and I read tons of masculinity books um but the ones that
kind of had me sort of like resonate the most were were those ones way of
Superman Masculine in Relationship um there’s a third one oh and no more Mr
nice Guy those things all had enough in there that I started to apply some of the principles and my life kept getting
better right and my relationship with my wife kept getting better and my relationship with my kids kept getting
better and I was like okay there’s something to this even though that doesn’t all feel totally right either
and when I look back at it now if I would have and this is this is the point is if I would have been giving given the
way of the superior man fresh after D-Day wild at heart yeah
i don’t think I would have received it the same way that I received Wild at Heart and so to be fair with that I
think everybody’s going to follow their own journey and they’re going to be stepping into the stream of whoever they work with you know with with me I
probably recommend Wave Superior Man pretty early on to some of these guys who probably maybe aren’t quite fully
ready for that and they might even take some of the principles and twist them and not quite get them right um
and you and use them in their own in in their unhealthy ways and maybe it could be used to perpetuate more denial or
whatever that’s a possibility which is not healthy masculinity by the way yeah which is why it always has to run back through a true value system and a lot of
times early recovery that’s what you’re trying to uncover again is your value system so um take take everything that
you ingest with a grain of salt and run it through that way and I think you might circle back to some of these
things and realize that there’s a different way of viewing them than the first time you looked at them yep and
some of them you’ll just get rid of there’s been plenty of books that I have no no desire to go back and take a look
at again and I don’t agree with almost any of any of it yeah and that’s I think everybody has that right but uh yes we
do promote principles of healthy masculinity absolutely and we uh like
hate and fight against any type of masculinity that hurts the feminine um
and doesn’t honor the feminine that’s not real masculinity doesn’t support the feminine absolutely not that’s not okay
um and so Tyler this has been good discussion apprec I appreciate your pers
perspective i I remember when we read way way of superior man and you hated it i told you I was like “This guy has a
total tool shed.” Yeah and then I did the same thing as you where I I kind of I said “But I’m going to try to figure
out if there’s something here that’s g that I luckily my DBT training kind of taught me like look for the kernel of
truth in everything and then get rid of whatever else isn’t true.” And so I was like there’s got to be a kernel of truth
here and then I went back through a second time and listened to it again and on the second time I kind of had a similar experience to you where I was
like “Okay now that I’ve got my own judgments out of the way what are the principles that are here that I can get
behind?” And what I heard and this is the essence of the principles that I feel like I was take took away the most
is you need to stop as a man you need to stop getting your validation from your
wife cuz she doesn’t have your answers that that lined up with wild at heart which is in Wild at Heart yes you need to learn to take accountability for your
own life your own actions your own choices is you need to actually learn how to value your masculinity and
provide strength structure space and container in your relationship so that you have a partner who can come to you
and treat you like an equal and I would add one more learn how to embrace your sexuality without shame yeah and that’s
which leads to more control and around your sexuality which leads to more
fidelity right yeah and then and then the other principles that I feel like were being screamed at me through those
books were you have to learn how to come to know thyself and own your own authenticity
and you need to start showing up as yourself in your relationship rather than as what you think everyone around
you and especially partner wants you to be and and and then when I started to
practice those things they started to play out as true that my that my wife
actually likes a man who is his own being rather than an extension of her
and who is willing to treat her with love kindness respect empathy and yet be honest which then
allowed her to trust what I was saying and yet be wild and on the edge and and to be dangerous but to know how to
manage that danger now and and not go back to the places where I blew her life up and if I if I’m not doing those
damaging things but now I’m cultivating that danger in a way that now is like
there’s a little bit of a wildness there that is actually feels strangely safe to her to know that that’s there to be used
in the right ways yes and not by no means do I have it all mastered but
those things started to play out and it’s like yeah okay that’s what I hear yes so anyway Tyler this has been
awesome um we would love uh uh some fivestar reviews from this episode to
combat the one star we just got um we’d really appreciate it if if what you’re
hearing resonates with you um and and this is helpful for you we would love your reviews and we Tyler it’s
interesting we even love the negative reviews it gives us good discussion points yeah we’ve had a really nice
discussion on this Brandon and we’ll probably continue it after this is over too so

Why Does Andrew Tate Do Us A Disservice?

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